Bush considers 5 year permits
(CNS): Employers in the financial services sector may be given the option of gaining five year permits for their staff if government takes on board a recommendation by the Immigration Review Team (IRT). Radio Cayman has reported that the proposal is likely to be backed by government and Leader of Government Business McKeeva Bush told the station that the financial services sector had to be considered separately from other industries when it came to work permit issues. “There must be a difference between the construction industry and the financial services industry and the tourism industry,” he said.
Bush noted that in some industries it was easier to find locals than in others, saying, “We have to pay attention; we are simply losing the business and we are going to die. The fallout in the US is one thing; the crisis here is self made.”
At the Cayman Fund Focus conference last week, Bush said that there would be changes to the immigration policy that would make it easier for the financial sector to get the permits they needed but he did not reveal any of the details of changes government is proposing in his presentation. However, he told Radio Cayman that this recommendation by the IRT would be one of the ways to create more jobs for Caymanians as well as improving the treatment of the financial industry.
The LoGB explained that if the firms could recruit the top level professionals they needed for their business more easil, that in turn would lead to the creation of more middle management and support roles for Caymanians. “We will find an improving situation when it comes to the Caymanian labour market,” he said, rather than a decreasing one as a result of the sector being treated badly. “When the question is asked of me, ‘Can I get my secretary or my fund manger?’ I have to be able to say yes, within bounds of course, but yes. They need a firm answer, so in the immediate term the situation will have to change.”
Bush said that people coming for the high level positions needed to know that they can live, work and continue to be in Cayman.
Rolstin Anglin, the minister with responsibility for labour, told CNS on Wednesday that nothing had yet been confirmed with regards to five year permits or any other changes to immigration policy but government was considering various ways to improve the immigration system and make the jurisdiction more competitive.He said the IRT had not yet completed its work and when decisions were made government would bring the necessary legislation.
“I don’t support the idea of allowing five year permits to be renewed as this would make it even harder for Caymanians coming out of college to get into good jobs in that sector,” Miller said, adding that the possibility of expatriates getting two five year permits would lock Caymanians out of those positions. “I would only support the policy if it was a one-off five year permit which, at the end, the permit holder would leave Cayman and not come back.”
Miller said that he has assumed that the comments made by the LoGB since taking office about improving the immigration situation, given he was the architect of the 2003 Immigration Law, would be with regard to improving the efficiency and not any major changes to the parameters of that law, which he said he would not support.
Category: Headline News
Anon
I am afraid you didn’t understandmy original posted where I referred to "b) there is less of a risk that a work permit holder would walk away, potentially taking a big client base with them…
Unfortunately, O’Really still doesn’t get that part either….
For a company, it is an advantage if an employee is bound to them by immigration laws (in addition to the usual contract). This is especially the case once an employee holds a more senior position. If this wouldn’t be the case, then why do law firms (for example) protect themselves by inserting a clause into the employment contract for work permit holder that prohibits them from working in the same field anywhere else on the Island for a certain period of time? Cleary, the company does not necessarily want to make it easy for someone who they brought over from overseas, to pick up and leave. The employee has to think very hard about leaving, as they often do not want to run the risk that their permit with a new employer is not granted and they end up having to leave the Island. For some, being out of a monthly salary for 6 or 9 month is also an issue, especially if they are the sole bread winner. True? This is the manipulation I was referring to.
It has nothing to do with the employee’s attitude who O’Really portrayed as prancing around the office threatening on a daily basis to leave unless the red carpet has been rolled out. In this case (Cayman), the Caymanians are free agents and can move between employers, finding the most suitable option and opportuniy for themselves. Why should they not take advantage of it? The same happens on Wall Street every day (where Americans hop from one job to the next).
I know plenty of Expats who HATE their employer, but they put up with it because they want to remain on the Island, hopeing to gain permanent residency and then be able to move around freely. In my experience, most employees have left their current employer after gaining permanent residency to move on to greener fields. Funny how this is pratice is so widely accepted anywhere else in the world, but if Caymanians take advantage of their benefits, it is an attitude issue. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why some Caymanians think of Expats as a hypocritical bunch……
This is my last post on this particular topic.
Good luck.
Although a "non compete" clause may be in the contract, I think if you review previous cases brought before the court, you will discover very few rulings upheld the clause. I don’t believe you can prevent someone from working in their chosen field.
O’Really
Let’s get back to the real issue of this blog. Please explain how giving out 5 year permits is to be benefical and for whom? Also, please explain what the Caymanians (who may have gone of to university and gained experience in other parts of the world) are supposed to get their foot in the door when most jobs have been occupied by someone who holds a 5 year permit. Don’t you also think it is an issue that if someone gets a 5 year permit and then maybe another one, they are automatically elegibel to apply for permanent residence, but immigration has only looked at their files 2?
One of the problems of so many people posting as Anonymous is I never know which one is addressing me at any point in time, but I’ll respond anyway.
The rational for 5 year permits is already set out on CNS in another article " Immigration changes will create jobs for locals". Tony Travers sets out clearly what Cayman faces and what it needs to do to stop the decline of the fund industry in particular and to seek new or enhanced revenue streams from existing service lines. I suggest you read that and try to understand the implications.
The problem that Caymanians are having with Travis’ argument and the suggestion of introducing 5 year permits and getting rid of roll-over is that they are not prepared to believe what he says. He is not one of them and never will be in their eyes. Despite his long term involvement in the industry here, his obvious expertise, his experience and recently his championing of Cayman in the media, he is considered by many Caymanians as the face of an expat conspiracy, rather than someone seeking the best outcome for all, Caymanians and expats alike.
If Caymanians can’t get past the prejudice inherent in the view that Travis is an expat out to get them and enrich himself and his buddies even further, there is nothing I can write here that will make any difference. Asking the advise of experts ( I mean Travis not me ) and then ignoring it because it doesn’t sit well rarely proves to be a good course of action, but by the time this is recognised, it’s usually too late to do anything.
Can I be an Expat pls? I’d like to be standing on the glass ceiling Mac is creating instead of under it pls.
I’m not looking forward to saying "sure is gud working for ya massa".
LMAO!!
I am not a member of the Financial Services Industry. To be honest, I don’t know much about it so can’t add to that aspect of this conversation, but I do believe there’s something also missing from it. I have lived in North America. And I have witnessed the faceless masses on Bay Street in Toronto, and locations in Vancouver and New York. They weren’t dodging chickens on the street. Many times they weren’t sitting in the sun. They were in amongst the skyscrapers having lunch. And I doubt very much if they could go to a place like Seven Mile for a swim within an hour of getting home. Aside from what everyone has been saying there are intangibles. I was never enchanted in Toronto or Vancouver and only occassionaly in New York. Cayman has something else to offer us other than employment. And that is a mix of cultures, and generally more intimate relationship, than one finds in a mass of urbanites hussling to work. Long after I leave, I won’t forget this place.
Joe Avergage: if your post is genuine, you are the type of person we would like to stay and build Cayman with us, that is if you are interested.
I think that the majority of people on this blog agree that to conduct business in Cayman has gotten too expensive and this is the main reason why there has been a decline, especially in a time where every company has to watch their cost. So how is this resolved by offering 5 year work permits? 5 year work permits will not reduce office space lease/rent, high IT cost, huge utility bills, huge importing/exporting cost (fedex alone is a whopper), outrageous health insurance cost etc etc. Again, how is this fixed be offering 5 year work permits?
Because it is a low cost (in revenue terms) means of reducing uncertainty for unemployers (a cost for them). Of course the employment law restrictions of the "boom years" should be swept aside for the next few years to protect the long term in term interests of Cayman and Caymanians. But they won’t be. This 5 year permit is too little to really make a difference but it is better than nothing. Greater security of tenure for financial service professionals is what is needed, but politically it will be unacceptable (just like cutting the civil service proved to be).
To O’Really
You make me laugh. Really! It sounds to me that someone at some point (possibly a Caymanian?) really put you in your place, which probably was a big blow to your ego and you yet have to recover from that. Naturally you once again jump to conclusion without knowing the facts (which just further proves the ignorance I referred to earlier). If you have had any bad experiences with Caymanians in the work force, I am not surprised. You clearly don’t bother to listen to both sides and come to a conclusion long before the facts are known. I am sure it must be difficult for you that not all Caymanians roll over and play dead when it suits their employers or supervisors, and that some of us still uphold certain morales and values and refuse to sit by and wach while their bosses facilitiate their buddies with jobs they are clearly not qualified to do. The reason that I left was in fact just that. I was expected to train my new managers and teach them everything I knew where they were apparently so much more qualified. I was expected to turn the other way when job ads were published in the local paper with a salary which was much less than what was offered to the "buddy" overseas. In some cases, these people got a "sign-on" bonus but hadn’t even set foot on the Island as yet, much less proven themselves at work. To my employers/supervisors dismay, I had an opinion about it and didn’t sit down and shut up when work permit holders were given car allowances and other benefits that local staff did not get. At this point, I made the choice that I no longer wanted to be a part of it and decided to walk. You may be interested to know that every single one of these work permit holders that were brought into these senior positions we apparently were not qualified to do since have left as well. Not because they wanted to – because the company realized that their fluffy CVs were actually just that – fluff – and that they could not contribute what they claimed they were capable of doing. At the end I knew that no matter what, I had opened my mouth and as such I would always be held back, and I decided I would not want to be working in a place with such low morale and no values. But I am sure you find a way to rationalize all of that away because clearly my points can not be valid. If there was an issue at my work place, in your world it obivously must have been my fault since I am the Caymanian and people like you with this colonial superial attitude must always be right, they can’t function otherwise.
Glad I made you laugh, although to be honest, from the tone of your post the image I conjure up is more of a twisted snarl. I’ve been put in my place on many an occasion, mostly by my wife, so it’s nothing new. I take such experiences as part of life’s learning process. I suggest you do the same. And let’s face it, we wouldn’t post here if we weren’t prepared to face the possibility that not everyone will see things our way, or maybe you hadn’t realised this?
I believe my post started "I don’t know you from a hole in the ground. I only have this post to go on…" so I think I was fairly clear that I was taking what you wrote at face value and this is part of what you wrote:
"This is exactly where the problem came in. It was easier for the firm to bring in a work permit holder because … b) there is lessof a risk that they walk away to a better opportunity on the Island, potentially taking a certain client base with them."
Employers have a responsibility to train Caymanian employees to function within their organisation, not a responsibility to train someone who’s aim is to take clients and set up as competition. Do you think any Caymanian would accept this, say Don Seymour or Naul Bodden? Not for a second and no expat employer should be expected to either. I believe I said I wouldn’t touch you with a barge pole with this attitude and I see no reason to change this conclusion.
Whilst there may be no, some or a lot of truth in the details you provide, what is clear to me is you are not capable of being objective. My suggestion to you was to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions. This advice still stands. You chose a course of action and it had consequences. That’s how things work. Your choice, your responsibility and your decision now as to whether you allow this to continue to colour your life or not.
One final suggestion. Try using shorter paragraphs, it makes your insults easier to track.
O’Really, I am new to this exchange but your admission that were Naul Bodden or Don Seymour (or I take it Dan, or Jude, or Cannover etc…) to apply for a job in your organisation you would not hire them even though you accept they are fully qualified – you would prefer an expatriate – is the very reason the system is not working, that Caymanians are ceasing to trust expatriates as much as they might otherwise, and is why there is continuing pressure to maintain rollover for financial services industry professionals.
If you cannot play by the rules (read laws), please just leave – you are screwing it up for the rest of us, Caymanians and Expatriates (and our clients) alike.
You seem to be faily new at the art of comprehension as well. You should engage your brain before you start typing. Read what O’Really said again. You totally missed the point and made yourself look stupid. He is not saying that he/his organisation would not employ Caymanian high flyers but that Caymanian high flyers would not be expected to train people whose goal is to start their own business to go into competition with them.
This is an example of your comprehension skills and I’m screwing it up?
You have my humblest apologies. I saw what I expected to see, not what was there … and I take it as a valuable lesson.
Kudos to you for apologising. And I owe you an apology because I didn’t think you would have the nerve and you have proved me wrong. We’re quits!
To anonymous posted at 11:58
your logic doesn’t work as unfortunately the excuse of the suitably qualified employee not locally availabe is not only applied to senior to top management levels, this excuse is used for so many jobs, including middle management, even for support staff. For example, why is it a requirement that a Fund Administrator speaks Portugese, when the company doesn’t have one single Portugese client? Or is it perhaps because that requirement was tailored towards someone who was already indentified for a job because it is a friend of a friend who wants to live for a few years in Cayman? You know how many times I have come across the situation where a candidate overseas has already been identified, before the ad was ever published locally? Most of the times, the candidates that these firms/companies have identified have already resigned their jobs back home and have gotten the nod to go ahead before interviews have been held locally to determine what is indeed localy available. More Caymanians go off to go to college elsewhere than ever before, and when they come back, they still are not "enough" suitably qualified. My friend has not been able to get a certain position because she got her qualification in the US and was told that the UK person (who has gotten the same qualification from a UK college) was better suitable because the UK qualification was better than the US one? HUH? I would say that it was more likely that the Managing Director was from the UK, wanting to bring in one of his golfing buddies kid for this job. If it would be indeed that only highly qualified individuals would be brought on board, who actually try to mentor and train some Caymanians, then a lot less people would take offense, but we all know (and I bet you do too in your heart and soul) that this is just a BS excuse. ………and don’t bother to tell me that businesses only bring in someone from overseas because they are trying to get the best possible employee………that may be the case occassionally, but more often it is a buddy/buddy thing, or businesses do it because a permit holder can’t just jump ship but a Caymanian can…….
For me the glass is always half full. I personally know quite a few Caymanians who have gone to law school in the UK and a larger number still who have become accountants. I likewise know several extremely high profile local lawyers with very senior positions whose salaries would make your head spin.
Lets look at retail… consider… who owns Fosters, Kirk, AL Thompson… who owns the gas stations… most of the resturants … Wendy’s… Burger King… Domino’s… KFC… and countless numbers of other retail, wholesale, construction, supply and design companies.
Who owns DMS… Cayman Compass… almost all of the local magazines.
Fosters (just my personal opinion) is a very large and extremely well run company and it’s locally owned and operated… and so are all the other companies I mentioned above.
There are so many other examples… look at the size of AL Thompson… seriously… LOOK at the size of that company… it is locally owned and operated.
In my every day life and my business life, 95% of the people I deal with are all locals and pretty much everything I do… and everything they do benfits the local economy.
All of these companies serve both the local population and all of the expat population and they make no distinction between the two…
Neither should we…
Marek
PS: What pisses me off to no end is all the locals who complain and then when they want a new TV they fly to Miami or import it directly instead of give the business to a local and most likely … a neighbour.
May be if the local merchants weren’t quite so greedy and didn’t expect 100%+ profit on everything we would buy from them.
I agree with you. The mark up at the local stores is pathetic. I saved over $250 buying my playstation in the US even after shipping and duties. I like to contribute as much as I can locally but I am not lining the greedy pockets of retailer here who demanded upwards of $600 for the same product.
At least if I buy something in the US and it breaks, I can take it back to the store next time I am over there for a refund/replacement. Here they just tell me it’s tough luck that my item is broken and wouldn’t contemplate replacing it or repairing it for you.
Retailers here need to wise up, everybody is working on a budget. Stores worldwide have had to slash their margins to get sales. Why should it be different in Cayman?
Cayman is slaying the goose that laid the golden eggs. Forcing firms to recruit and train Caymanians is a tax on profitability which might have been borne in better economic times but not in today’s world. Let high end talent come and stay and Cayman has a chance of a better future for all.
England forces businesses to hire locals before expatriates. As does the US. As does Russia. Come to thinnk of it, I cannot think of a country that does not.
Yes but the UK has a pool over over 60 million people to choose from. They don’t need to bring in too many highly qualified expats as they have plently of people qualified and able to do the senior jobs. They bring in a lot of expat labour to fill positions they can’t or won’t do. Like doctors from india and cleaners from poland.
Just like in Cayman, where expats fill the jobs that Caymanians won’t do (hard labour jobs) and those jobs they can’t do like accounting, law, funds specialities etc because they are not educated to a high enough level, have no concept of world markets and don’t have the work rate to succeed. The talent pool of 15,000 caymanians just isn’t big enough to provide the number of highly competent individuals that these companies need to employ.
If the government let expats get on with running the companies properly and employ who they wanted, then in the long term the country would have much more revenue to pay for better education for Caymanian kids and send some of the graduates overseas to proper universities. The university in Cayman is not good enough, not because it is in Cayman, it wouldn’t be if it was in England, US or wherever. Prestigious employers need staff from the top universities around the world.
And there are Caymanians from those same top class universities from around the world who are being displaced nin their own country. What you suggest is the breeding ground for revolution, not good business.
I call bull. I am Caymanian and understand the frustrations that people have but it is a disservice to everyone just to make up examples of problems.
Please name one Caymanian from a top class university that has been pushed out of a job. Name the person and the university and qualification that this person has.
I have been working in the financial services industry for 10 years and have not seen any examples ofthis type of behavior.
You forget that the UK is now part of the EU and anyone who is a citizen of an EU country can easily work in any other member country. So the pool you talk about is much larger than 60 million.
What makes you think the U.S. forces businesses to hire locals (citizens) before hiring expats? Please google the U.S. Chamber of Commerce before making such comments.
The unemployment rate in the U.S. continues to climb because Americans are losing their jobs to any/everyone.
Microsoft’s Bill Gates continue to lobby for more and more foreign workers. Most of the medical staff (doctors, nurses…) are from abroad.
Again, please google the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
In response to Anonymous 22:57
I agree with your statements – for the most part. Businesses outsorce part of their operations where the overhead is cheaper. Besides the places you named, such places include Mauritius, India etc. The main reason is that the cost of maintaining an employee is much cheaper than what it is in Cayman (health care alone), but the fact that office space, utilities and IT cost are much much cheaper is also an added bonuse. However, I disagree that they can hire whoever they want to. These countries have also work permit laws, and in some cases they are much stricter. I have worked for some time in the US and I can tell you that it was a huge struggle for the company to get a work permit for me. At the end, they had to hire a immigration lawyer to see the process through, as it was an extremely long and drawn out process, with much more requirements to fullfill than what is being asked here in Cayman. If we agree that companies move to wherever they can get the highest profit margin, then how does extending a work permit for 5 years resolve this issue? Salaries, health care cost, utilities, office space etc are still much higher here than anywhere else……..
The reality is that the international firms that dominate the financial services sector have no interest in the Caymanian vs. ex-pat debates. Most of these firms are run from onshore jurisdictions and will move jobs to whatever jurisdictions provide the cheapest and most flexible business environments.
Citco and UBS have already outsourced hundreds of jobs out of Cayman to places like Canada and Ireland (these are people that service Cayman-domiciled funds), depsite the fact that they have to pay taxes on their income in those jurisdictions.
Goldman Sachs and Citigroup have now shut down their operations in Cayman and moved the jobs to other jurisdictions. Maples Finance and Butterfield Fulcrum have begun similar restructurings.
Why would they do this? Because the cost of doing business is lower and they have the freedom to hire whoever they want in those jurisdictions.
Global financial firms do not care to support the Cayman Islands, Caymanians, ex-pats, Bermudians, Canadians, etc…. They only care about maximizing their own bottom lines (that is the cold, hard truth).
If Cayman establishes an attractive business environment, firms will invest here and grow the economy for everyone. If not, business will continue to move business to other jurisdictions and everyone will suffer the consequences.
Corporations have been setting in operations in Ireland for a while, this is due to favorable tax. In fact, Coca-cola has a plant in Ireland.
When you compare the education of some of those countries, example, Dubai…a lot of those countries send their citizens abroad for education. Most, if not all, are already ahead of the game. They, like in the U.K., Europe, China, the children are learning 2, 3 or 4 languages. Most are either studying for engineering, doctorate , jurisprudence, architectual – meanwhile, they are well ahead of most Western societies in Math and Science. In fact, listen to some of the people from the Middle East, I will use Iran for an example, some of the residents speak better (proper) English than most Americans.
BTW, let’s not leave India out of this equation. Here in the U.S., there are guys from India that are teaching Math and Accounting classes at the colleges and universities, because they are well-qualified.
What’s happening, we are losing are competitive edge. We are more concerned with looks, money…..we are trying to make a kids feel good about themselves – buying them things they don’t need, kids watch more television and listern to more music than studying, kids are using calculators and computers to do their homework instead of using a good ol’ pencil and paper, and how ’bout parents during their children’s homework?
Absolutely right. These are hard facts but they are ones that need to be considered if the financial services sector is going to continue in Cayman. I would also suggest that you add two other factors that shape the allocation of financial services activity around the globe.
The first is the competence of the government in maintaining a stable platform in the context of shifting global politics. The next big one for Cayman relates to changes in the EU Savings Directive. So far the government seems completely clueless and unlike a few years ago has done nothing to shape what Cayman will have to do.
The second is the rising level of crime. Even if international firms are allowed to hire the senior staff that they want from outside Cayman, those staff will not want to come to Cayman if they think that there is a possibility that they will be shot in their homes or at work by some thug. If things keep going down hill as fast as they have been for the past few months a few of us Caymanians may want to take our families somewhere safe as well.
Watching it happen from the inside of a major firm, I agree with all of this.
It’s just business. Either Cayman is competitive, or the business will elect another jurisdiction. There is no emotion to it.
And they surely don’t care about expat v Caymanian yapfests, other than to prefer tranquility since it’s better for business.
The exodus is well underway, more than is likely seen from the outside, and the money flowing into Cayman will continue to dry up.
Back to the yapfest, you said you wanted us gone. We’re going.
$100 dollars says you won’t have the spherical objects to put your money where your mouth is and leave.
But if you do, let me know and I will pay you right away!! Less your home countries income tax, of course…
Blah blah blah…. same old empty-headed noise.
Watch your house of cards fall, fool. You’ll always have your fishing line.
And I will be using that fishing line regularly on my nice big fishing boat funded by the success of hard work, dedication and commitment to life.
I bet you are one of those still sitting on all your money – of significantly reduced cash – afraid to step in to the market because its going to fall again,.
Go Chicken Little – the sky is falling – but in the meantime, us glass-half-full guys are going at it, making our upside, firming up our businesses and setting stop losses to protect ourselves against another drop. You, on the other hand, are cordially invited to buy Google at 700 when it passes that figure again and is now "doing well".
Too bad there are so few willing to put their money where their mouths are and jump in at the deep end…
Actually, not so bad – pool’s pretty empty and fun to be in right now…
Silly person: it has nothing to do with spherical objects. It’s all about the money. Our employers are already shifting the jobs out – you don’t think we’ll follow them when the time is right? Of course we will.
When Cayman fails and there’s no longer any financial benefit to being here, we’ll all go.
Until then please stand back and don’t interfere with the pillaging.
You can have the left-overs.
Anyone who runs a business without adapting to the change wil eventually fail – and deservedly so…
Jobs shift, employees come and go. Sorry if the trust guys came in from the Bahamas in the 70’s and the same positions are leaving in the 2009’s. But there are others moving in. 5 years ago my Hedge Fund was a ficus-growing initiative…
Step back, stop focusing on you you you and realise the bigger picture is about business adapting to the environment.
I am pretty sure you are just a pawn in this – an employee moved and shuffled at the whim of your employer.
I, on the other hand, am an employer who sees the bigger picture based on the revenue and demand of my customers.
YES – things are down – but we are still here, and our customers clearly state they will be around, all be it, possibly, in a different form, when the current storm passes.
But that is the same in ALL jurisdictions…
"But there are others moving in."
Which would they be please?
E&Y expanding and already short of space for new upper management – who will all be getting their support staff in time.
Ogiers growth into a new office.
New firm – Harneys – complete with staff.
Any one would have sufficed, but thought I would throw in 3 to start.
Oh wait – a new fund in the old Otmar’s space at Grand Pavilion – just opened, projects staffing up to 50 within months.
Greenlight Re expands in their new offices.
Wow – do I have to keep rubbing your negative face in it?
Maybe you are more of a stats man/woman – the Cayman Stats office will gladly give you the figures for company licenses, trade and business licenses and work permits. Or are they in on the giant conspiracy???
Maybe you weren’t reading correctly as to the departures* already:
Goldman
Citigroup
CITCO
UBS
Maples Finance
Butterfield
Fortis
Get the picture??? Best be paying all those people their $100 each (they can worry about the taxes, since they obviously choose to pay them rather than stay here).
—————
*"Departures" include Cayman entities choosing to set up its newest work-centres in other jurisdictions instead of staying here.
You are kidding me, right? A successful business opens a branch in a new location and mans it with EXISTING EMPLOYEES (God forbid) and now they are MOVING???
OMG – can you not see this is actually a reflection that the Cayman business is doing well and spreading their risk basis while diversifying their revenue sources??
You give me the names of operations that have SHUT DOWN TOTALLY in Cayman, then you have an arguement.
FYI, to each of yours…
Goldman – still here, cut the fat, doing well. Centralized operations and trimmed or transferred jobs that made sense. Business still booming- stock up over 100% in 6 months, Cayman ops included…
Citigroup – Sold off/diversified hedge fund biz to Bisys – now CITIHedge – doing great…
CITCO –
UBS – No factual evidence, but if they were pulling out, I am sure their would be a barain on a bulding on Elgin Ave. In fact, it is costing them MORE to do business now carrying the building with less revenue, and yet… THEY ARE STILL HERE!!!
Maples Finance – Globalizing, growing, setting up backup operations. As atrully CAYMAN operation before, Ivan hit them hard. So now they are growing and spreading risk. Cayman ops still strng and growing…
Butterfield – Growing and spreading risk. If they were consolidating or cutting back they would shrink ops to the new building, but it won’t fit – they are still growing…
Fortis – Did you click through on my link??? In fact, Cayman doing better than the rest of the company…
So, my wallet’s still stuffed and the planes are empty. But you will net $40 if you leave now – and that’s cause I am paing your negative a** to leave!!!
"… can you not see this is actually a reflection that the Cayman business is doing well and spreading their risk basis while diversifying their revenue sources??"
No, I actually see it as business leaving Cayman. So do the people losing the jobs that used to be here, as do the local businesses who are missing those consumers.
"Business still booming- stock up over 100% in 6 months, Cayman ops included…"
I really have a hard time believing that even you are confusing Goldman’s stock price with Caymanian success. They close the Cayman office. The stock goes up. How does this equate with success for Cayman? Seriously… the education people get around here…
PS – Anyone who starts a sentence with "OMG" is unlikely to pack the intellectual horsepower to be able to appreciate the difference. I forgive you your foolishness.
Wow. What can I say. The OMG was an attempt to reach down to your level of ignorance.
Meet you at the "CLOSED" Goldman office monday morning.
Perhaps if you see it with your own eyes as a vibrant, active office with way more than the 15 people touted as being there, you will start to realize that you are believeing your own lies.
If not, why are you still here? To bitch and moan and put down the Caymanians?
I will personally drive your sorry a$$ off the island – it is this negativity that is the epitomy of the problem.
Please, do us all a favor – go! Go! GO!!!
And remember, the grass is always greener on the other side – and when you look back and realise your mistake, remember – ours will be greener from all the SH!T you spouted that fertilized it. Thanks.
Sad thing is, you won’t leave, you know the truth. You just want to create a division. We are stronger than that. And wise to your ways. Looking forward to rolling you over!!! I may hate the policy, but like every dark cloud, it has a silver lining – the ability to get rid of ignorance!!
…when I’m done pillaging, if you don’t mind.
You give me the names of operations that have SHUT DOWN TOTALLY in Cayman, then you have an arguement.
Maitland
Please make sure you are 100% factual when posting – Goldman has NOT shut down their operations in Cayman. Thye did restructure some jobs abroad, but they are very much alive and operational in Camana Bay at their new office.
Similarly, Citigroup did move most operations but they do still have an office here – even if it is only one person part time.
And to use the word "hundreds" when referring to the number of jobs outsourced by CITCO and UBS is misleading. Yes both firms have done some restructuring and moved jobs – but if it is more than 100 I would be very surprised, and certainly not more than 200 – thus allowing for plurality.
Another fact to bear in mind – many of these companies set up or moved staff to other jurisdictions for other reasons. After Hurricane Ivan, it was weeks or months before many of them were able to be fully operational. Duringthat time, they were housed in other jurisdictions.
The costs of the relocation, the need for speed in switching to other locations and the logstical nightmare of moving people and data meant a rethink of the bigger picture. Just getting physical files and data transferred was extremely difficult and expensive, in part because much of this could never touch US soil, and thus had to go through circuatous routse such as the Bahamas and Jamaica.
For some companies this disruption meant making a permanent backup location that complimented their Cayman operations. Naturally, since many help set these up, it made sense to move some of the Cayman staff to them. Furthermore – if they have a closely tied office inanother location, they can rotate staff there for a year or two to keep them working while the archaic roll-over policy does its best to disrupt them!!
Back to the main point – this is not a Cayman problem – the whole world has experienced massive recessionary effects. Many companies have had to be nimble and move jobs, restructure and relocate just to survive. Absolutely, Cayman has to do their best to maintain a business-friendly environment. But remember – some of the benefits of operating here far outweigh the costs of doing business.
You tried to refute my points – but actually ended up strengthening them. Citigroup still has an office with one person who works part time? Wow – that is a great boost to Cayman’s economy.
Goldman goes from 60 people down to like 15 – and you call that thriving?
You didn’t even mention the fact that Maples Finance is moving half of their jobs to Montreal, or Butterfield moving jobs to Halifax or Fortis shrinking their office by 50%.
And when you say the number is "only" 100-200, first of all, that is at least 50 jobs for Caymanians that have been lost directly (not too mention) how many indirect jobs (stores, construction, LIME, CUC, restaurants, etc..).
AND – it doesn’t factor in the opportunity cost of the hundreds of people that were hired directly in the other jurisdications, many of whom could have been hired here in Cayman.
Now you are being a little more factual, even if your numbers are off. You also neglect to mention the growth at E&Y, Appleby, Close Brothers and more.
Citi’s move was far more strategic and involved spinning off certain areas to other local companies who have grwon as a result. Bisys now CitiHedge…
You could cite Scotia for closing a large division – but it was really just moved to Close and Barclays Private, both of whom grew to accomodate the work.
So, there are two sides to every coin, and when you present the negative, please show both sides of the story so you maintain some credibility.
Butterfield is "creating" jobs in Halifax – they are not cutting them here. Sure some people from here are moving – they have the knowledge the bank needs – you don’t staff an entire new office with new employees… You need people who have been with the company elsewhere. Furthermore, they are replacing those who have been transferred.
Maples is opening in Montreal – yes – and also some jobs have gone to Europe. But they are part of globalisation of the firm.
As for cuts at Fortis, thanks for highlighting the global economic plight of many financial firms. Indeed, last September, Fortis was in serious problems and they made GLOBAL cuts:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1063799/RBS-exposed-Fortis-risk-regulators-open-talks-rescue-Belgian-banking-insurance-firm.html
So, yes, Cayman is being effected by the world economy – how couldn’t it given its status and importance in the financial world?
And as the economy improves, allowing for caution on the part of the companies and a lag for growth, Cayman will also improve – especially if we make ourselves attractive to investors.
Sure things are getting more expensive, but believe it or not, there are a lot more expensive places to work and do business than Cayman in Europe and other parts of the world. Indeed, for some of these financial firms, Cayman was a relative bargain for years. Now we are increasing costs, we are becoming more level on the playing field.
As for the other indirect job losses, sure, it is economics that has dictated that companies downsize in response to global financial shrinkage.
So, unless you can provide me with solid numerical proof that the transfer of jobs out of Cayman has resulted in massive growth in another jurisdiction, then I suggest you look at the big picture. Those same jurisdictions suffered as much, or worse in the financial mess that hit a little over a year ago.
Most companies had to respond far quicker and more drastically – do you not remember all the layoffs over the past year in the financial industry worldwide?
Most of these companies did centralize administration and thus where a Cayman office may have operated on its own, largely untouched by corporate offices as long as they made money, they came under the microscope. Cuts were made, people were moved and everyone tightened their belts and hunkered down for the storm. (Excpet the CI Government who rather cat or ostrich-like hid its head thinking that would protect it… But that’s for another debate!)
It is called business. And today, businesses don’t set up shop and hope to grow. They are dynamic, seeking new jurisdictions in which to operate, responding to demand and generally trying to do what’s best for the owners and shareholders! Sometimes that means shuffling people in and out of offices.
By the way, you neglect to mention the growth of employees in perhaps one of the largest entities on the island – Dart and their affiliated companies…
"…especially if we make ourselves attractive to investors."
That’s the problem. Cayman isn’t.
Maples Finance wouldn’t move to Canada if Cayman were a more business-friendly jurisdiction.
Butterfield would keep the "new" jobs here, if Cayman were a more business-friendly jurisdiction.
The list could easily continue…
Cayman is not a relative bargain. It is one of the most expensive (and painfully bureaucratic and slow) jurisdictions on the planet to do business.
Why else would Maples Finance and Butterfield be shifting operations to Canada, the exact opposite of a tax-free jurisdiction? (Freakin’ Canada, God bless her!!!!!)
Simple: because paying those taxes is now preferable to the pain suffered for trying to do business here.
You are of course, right. Cayman is nolonger the bargain it was by being a niaive business environ that charged a relative pittance for the benefit of doing business here while providing significant benefits. Part of the "transfer" of jobs is actually using experienced employees to opennew operations centers for the benefit of business growth and back up in the event of another Ivan. FYI, Newbie, Ivan was the major disruption to our community that we overcame with relative ease, but still had significant business impact. A minor ice storm in the US shuts a community own for weeks. After Ivan, many of us were operational within days. Innovation and the willingness and ability to adapt did it. But in the end, for the big guys, having another location really helps, so really this is operational diversification…
You are on crack if you think 500 Citco jobs in Toronto is operational diversification.
I believe that would fall under business growth AND diversification. I also am pretty certain all 500 jobs did not come from the Cayman office.
Thanks for the help proving my point – jobs are constantly moving to and from jurisdictions as companies respond to their work environment and competitive forces.
And just as some positions have been moved from Cayman, some have been moved TO Cayman.
We seem to be arguing about something we both agree on. Cayman needs to ensure that it is an attractive place to do business, otherwise, the companies (and jobs for Caymanians AND ex-pats) will move elsewhere.
Exactly- but this is proof positive that true, un-biased debate can lead to a mutual understanding – even if we come at the same answer from different angles.
At the same time – can you see the biggots we drew into the debate that are using this as a means to a derogatory end. Sad.
I only wish they had experienced Cayman 10-20-30 years ago – now that was a heck of a place to realise that differences actually bound us together!!!
Let’s agree we are on the same track and tackle the whack jobs using this forum as a divisionary tactic.
Seriously, if we were a community, they could tell me who their neighbours are and let me know the last time they socialised… (Waving good morning in the parking lot is NOT socialising…)
I assume, as neighbours, they did…
If not, if they only sought out their "own kind" then maybe they can at least acknowledge,if not admit, that they are a big part of the problem…
I agree with some of the comments 09:02 hrs. I agree with the expats in the financial industry came from wealthy backgrounds….
I tried to explain on a post a few days ago, that training Caymanians for the financial services industry is easier said than done. I was called a "dude," when I am a female.
I indicated that the firm retains the license, not the employee. Yes, the firms seek out the best and brightest. That is why prospective employees are interviewed…before being sponsored by the big firms. You must have a sponsor (firm) to take the securities exam.
Yes, sometimes people work their way up from mailroom….but, not very often. Big firms have a reputation to protect. If they just hire people without experience, this will cause them to clients to other firms.
My apologies for referring to you as "dude". I meant no disrespect but my comments apply to any gender. Your comments apply to your US perspective – there is no NASD licensing requirement here.
I am an expat. I worked in financial services and law in NY since the mid-80’s. I have had NASD licences, insurance licences, you name it. The situation in Cayman is unlike the scenario you are describing. Big city financial service firms, primarily brokerage houses, have a vast pool of bodies for entry-level jobs. They will go through dozens of candidates a year because, 1- the pay is not that great; 2- the work is hard; 3- you have to pass that damn test. As a result, the entry level workers do not stay more than a year or two unless they like the work. At that point the firm may decide to invest in training and development for higher level work.
Here in Cayman we do not have the luxury of numbers and I do not suspect that the foreign financial services firms here or considering coming here are going to consider Cayman as their primary office. Therefore, the offices here will tend to be more specialised and staffed by experienced mid to upper-level employees. If there is any training or licensing required, the firms will hire candidates who already have it. The expats who come here are not necessarily from wealthy backgrounds (me, for example) but they are most likely past the entry-level stage.
Where does that leave Caymanians? Unfortunately, the same place it leaves recent high school and university graduates around the world – looking for a job. The local financial institutions are not big enough, from what I see, to absorb the number of graduates coming out each year. The Caymanians who have the qualifications and experience to fill the mid to upper level positions have jobs, I hope. If not, these are the people who must be addressed before any five year permits are issued.
Thanks Mr. Rizzo, apology accepted. Yes, I understand, I left this industry about 10 years now. I left because it just wasn’t for me. I also had a position at a non-profit, chairing a committee. I had to notify the insurance company of some of the board members improprieties in order to get the regulator to do their jobs – yes, their bonds were revoked, among some other things. So, again, I left the industry altogether because you know how word spreads. I would have been labeled a troublemaker (not being a teamplayer), instead of doing my job and not wanting to go to jail/barred from the industry by covering up. It was my job to investigate…..
What you have said, I agree. I guess I was trying to say it in a way to advise, it’s not that easy for beginners to just go to the top without having worked the bottom.
Yes, there is heavy turnover in this industry. However, most entry-level college graduates have a good chance, due to networking and college buddies. And I indicated that most are from wealthy backgrounds; with college loans, and new grads, yes, the pay isn’t all that great unless, of course, they have the networks/family….to help them build up their clientele.
I guess we both have our own ‘war stories.’
Mr. Gordon Barlow suggested that every high school graduate be provided with a sum of money to go off and travel the world for a year to see how people live and work globally. He believes such a program would give our youth a valuable perspective on what it takes to be successful. I happen to agree with him and have facilitated 5 of my 6 children so far to finish their educations overseas and or travel.
Perhaps we could require that a Financial Sector Employer is obligated to make a junior position available, at their New York/London/Hong Kong/Dubai offices, to a reasonably qualified Caymanian for each one of its high level Work Permit employees here.
These would be the seedlings we could reap for our industry in ten years time.
The ambitious and hardworking Caymanian would necessarily be exposed to the greater competitive pressures that other posters have argued exist in those places.
If they are able to swim with the sharks there, then they could not be denied the opportunity to come home and hold jobs at the highest levels here.
They would know that they had earned their position just like everyone else and they would not be discounted by the employer’s customers for the same reason.
Certainly there would be no reason why any company with an office in the UK couldn’t do it.
Of course, those kids might be given even better opportunities there and may decide to stay away.
One of mine is still away, after eight years or so. But he has a Master’s Degree and is working in a job he enjoys and where he is respected by his peers for what he does, not where he was born.
Now that would be funny. Any bets how long the average Caymanian employee would last in a New york or London office?
There’d be no facebooking, texting and playing with your blackberry all day, slacking off, pulling sickies or taking 2-3 hot meal breaks per day. They would be fired in less than a day.
Those that did survive would however come back with the right attitude, a good work rate and a balanced view of the world. They would understand how business works and would be very desirable employees for any firm in Cayman. Their international experience would have beaten all thought of entitlement and glass ceilings etc out of their mind and they would see things for how they are. You have to put the work in to do well and advance at work.
Great point. But what where the Caymanian has done those things and comes back and meets all your criteria and applies for a job – to be denied it in favour of a perhaps equally qualified expatriate AND fails to tell immigration a qualified Caymanian applied. If that happens do you admit there is a problem?
To Anonymous posted at 13:28
I am not sure what is worse, your arrogance or your ignorance. You know nothing about me, but you feel you are entitled to judge, not sure what facts you are going on, but I guess that speaks to your ignorance. I wrote about my experience, so I am going on facts. I am college educated, have worked in Europe and in the US and have worked for over 10 years in Cayman. I have been consistently promoted and completed many additional courses to advance myself in my career and have done so successfully. This is exactly where the problem came in. It was easier for the firm to bring in a work permit holder because a) they are more easily intimidated and put up with crap because they do not want to take the chance having to leave the Island b) there is less of a risk that they walk away to a better opportunity on the Island, potentially taking a certain client base with them. Please tell me how many people YOU are aware of have turned down the opportunity to work in Cayman because of Immigration issues.
I don’t know you from a hole in the ground. I only have this post to go on, but I suggest you read your own points a) and b) again. These are a large part of the reason you are stuck.
It is very likely that the work permit holder also thinks that some of what he/she is asked to do is crap, but they come to accept that in Cayman this is part of the job and get on with it. New professional staff coming to Cayman are often surprised that they are required to take several steps backwards, compared to their previous position but it’s just part of how Cayman businesses are run; they do not generally have large admin support staffs. The poor attitude you display in your post will almost certainly reveal itself to your bosses over time; change it or accept the consequences, this is your personal responsibility.
As for point b), there is not much to say. You clearly accept walking away as a possibility, with or without clients and there is a very good chance that this attitude makes itself known to your current employers over time. Do you consider this the type of loyalty display that merits loyalty in return? If I got a whiff of this I wouldn’t touch you with a barge pole and your nationality would have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Well you know what ? I am applying for a work permit too, because then I might actually get somewhere in this ya place. Mac selling Cayman from under us and we all standing here too scared and stupid to see it. Thsi will be like the status grants plenty noise and no action. This is why our young people are living for the moment, they dont see any future!
First Canover makes a speech about Caymanians expecting too much special treatment and now this!!!
I am seeing a trend here, I wonder if this was Canovers idea?
I have worked for 10 years in the financial industry and have yet to hear about someone not being able to get a work permit, or someone declining a job because of the immigration law. This is just plain BS. Please provide us with statistics that shows the amount of work permits that have been declined.
The excuse of not having "porperly trained and educated" Caymanians capable of doing the job has been used for the last 30 years. If for the last 30 years the work permit holders would have done what they were supposed to be doing and train Caymanians and provide them the opportunity to gain experience in managerial positions, then don’t you think there should be plenty of experienced Caymanians around by now? Caymanians were told to go and get a college education, more than ever, they are doing it now, and you know what, the excuses just keep on coming. How much longer are Caymanians supposed to put up with this excuse?
I have left one work place and several other Caymanians have left throughout the same year because we have been frustrated out of our jobs, and every single one of us was replaced with a work permit holder. Every single one! So I don’t think that you need to make the immigration law more enticing!
Judging by your comments it appears that you are part of the entitlement generation and blame everybody but yourself for your lack of personality, skills, work ethic and aptitude.
Like you mentioned, opportunites have been around for 30 years for Caymanians and some are taking them with open arms and have become very successful. However people like you expect to be able to walk in to upper management without working your way up. Senior positions require some very technical skills and a great deal of knowledge and experience dealing in international affairs of companies. Just because you got a high school leavers certificate, 2 illegitimate children and an attitude problem doesn’t mean you have the right to these jobs.
If you applied yourself at work and were motiviated in what you do instead of spending hours on facebook, or eating takeout or chatting on the phone then you would be considered an effective employee and would improve your prospects at work.
You got it right on.
Un tasse de tea said something very interesting earlier on and was 100% correct – no matter what racist and ignorant opinions some people have, the leaders of the Caymanian and non Caymanian companies are not stupid, and will always employ the best they can afford, preferably Caymanian but if not Caymanian then expat will do.
Lets move on from the silly conspiracy theories now.
Must be nice living in cloud cuckoo land.
People are just people and they are often motivated prejudices, loyalties and emotions. No matter how well educated they do not always act rationally or fairly or even their own best long term interest. It is silly to suggest that they do. It is plainly nonsense to suggest that Caymanian and non-Caymanian employers will always prefer to employ Caymanians over expats all other things being equal.
I hope I can speak on behalf of some expats who may be in same boat. I have been here for quite some time now and consider my husband and me good residents. We are both have the needed qualifications, education and contribute by volunteering many hours weekly.
We would like to build a home here and invest in the community, however we face roll over next year so we will wait until we know our status here on island until we invest. I am sure there must be hundreds of people like us here, people who are now in a holding pattern. The key employee process and residency application process are long and drawn out. Many people leave because they cannot put their life on hold.
Now would the people of Cayman like individuals like me and my husband to stay, people who contribute to the community and who are going to invest in local businesses OR roll us over and have two more people come in to fill our positions – people who, given the roll over policy, will never consider putting roots down or really becoming part of the community? Do we want Cayman to become a transient society?
I understand that Caymanians are unemployed, so we need to really look at why. I have worked at many offices now and see a common theme and it needs to be addressed. The work ethic needs to be improved and so does education, so that Caymanians can compete in the work force. The growing crime, due to lack of consequences needs to be addressed as well – Cayman needs a fair legal system. I have heard stories of the old days (not even that long ago) and in Cayman youth never got away with anything. There was a real strong community here, Cayman needs to work on the youth here. If Caymanians want to compete in the finance sector, we need kids dreaming to be lawyers and CFAs – not secretaries, receptionists and bank tellers.
"We must see the big picture here: no relaxing of immigration laws = means no investment growth. We are within a world wide turning point. Cayman has a lot of potential, IF we allow it to be an international world market and not manage it as a small town family business."
You are so right but so many people do not see the big picture. We need to import high end world class professionals to keep the jobs flowing for the economy at all levels. People moving every 5 years because they are worried about roll over or the perceived instability here is killing our client base.
"The LoGB explained that if the firms could recruit the top level professionals they needed for their business more easily, that in turn would lead to the creation of more middle management and support roles for Caymanians."
Please read the below comment entitled ‘I think we need to get back’ posted at 09.02am.
As mentioned there are a very small number of Caymanians mentally cabable of doing top level professional jobs, probably less than a few 10’s, just like any other small group of individuals. anywhere in the world. Like most people, most Caymanians are capable of doing middle management and support roles. I suspect the ones capable of top level professional jobs do not need the help of Government, the best have a habit of rising to the top anyway – don’t forget companies like to make money and a top level Caymanian would make them lots of money.
Thus the government should concentrate on generating jobs for the much larger group of Caymanians.
Ask the top-level professionals where they started.
Toronto and London?
I was thinking more along the lines of middle management and support.
Probably not in support in the professional businesses.
And despite having degrees most of them started at the bottom – post room, reprographics, clerical assistant, junior and worked their way up through sheer hard work, efficiency, accuracy, ambition, results and drive which earned them the recognition needed to move up, a bit at a time, until they reached the top.
Natural job progression in any country… except here it seems where some get their qualifications and immediately obtain a position at the top despite having no practical work experience or without having to ‘prove themselves’ first.
Life is not a Michael J. Fox movie or Erin Brockovitch! Most of the ones at the top started at the top relative to their peers. They went to the top colleges, excelled there and then went to the best firms where they received more exposure to the best work with the best people in their business who only wanted the best available under them. That experience and contacts madethem better prospects for the next stage of their career and so it continued. By the time you are 25 the "top end" of your career path is fairly well defined.
There are plenty, look at Close Brothers, a Bracker in charge there
Mmmm then there’s Truman Bodden, in fact there are a good number around already.
Truman’s firm is now owned and operated largely by expatriates so that is a bad example? What others do you have in mind?
Thank you, that’s the same thing I said when I read it.
I was wondering if I misunderstood what he was saying until I read it over and realized that, that is exactly what he meant.
Why would you be surprised that the LoGB would make that comment when he said that Caymanians could not comprehend the "one man,one vote" concept? He has a very low opinion of his people’s mental abilities!
I think we need to get back to reality here a little. The population of the Cayman Islands would not ‘explode’ if expats within the financial services industry were given status – there are currently only around 1,000 expats working in the industry. How does this constitue an explosion! Half of them probably have no intension of staying here, just here to make some money. And Bush is not even suggesting giving them status. Worse case, 1,000 highly intelligent, hard working and wealth people make deep and proper investments into the country and community which they now call home. Is that so bad?
Next it should be noted that most high earning expats in the financial industry do not send all their money overseas to ‘support families at home’. They are coming from wealthy countries for goodness sake. They live in nice houses, drive nice cars and eat in expensive resturantes – all adding to the country revenues.
Lastly we have to dispel this idea that anyone can do any job. It does not matter what experience and qualifications people may have, if they do not have the right mental dexterity or intellectual quotant they will not be able to do some jobs. Cayman is an average place with average people much like any similar sized group of people in the western world. There are only a few Caymanians who have the ability and where with all to do some of the financial functions done on this island. It is as simple as that. This is not anti caymanian, or racist or sexist. The expats working in the financial industry in higher level positions are not average people from their respective countries. As Whodatis mentioned, they have been in competition with the best and brightest minds in their countries, they have beaten thousands of other poeple to the positions in fair competition and have won. They were selected for their ability to do certain jobs out of thousands of applicants.
Qualifications and experience get you in the door, but alone they do not make you a success.
Finally given all this lets please make the distinction between High end financial expat and an unskilled laborour on minimum wage. They are two very different people though both offering services and benefits to the island.
That sums it up in a nutshell – well said.
I am entirely sympathetic to your view and would support it IF the training and advancement opportunities which require that Caymanians be given every opportunity to meet their maximum potential are incorporated. Follow the model (paricularly) of a certain accountancy firm and it can be done. Follow the model of other related industries and we will only deepen the disaster we are now experiencing.
"Follow the model of other related industries and we will only deepen the disaster we are now experiencing." Explain this! It reads like nonsense. What "disaster" are we now experiencing.
At least one major accountancy firm (thanks JC) has made the system work for itself and for Caymanians. It operates at the very highest levels internationally. Numerous (but not all) other leading financial services professionals and organisations have only given lip service to the training and advancement of Caymanians. Despite international degrees and qualifications and excellent work ethics a growing number of highly qualified Caymanians are now finding themselves in impossible situations in their careers – often used as pawns simply to get immigration permissions for others, and cast away when the permissions are grtanted. They had the potential to succeed at the very highest levels but have been unfairly prevented from doing so. Their numbers are growing and so is their influence. Their stories are now coming to the fore and are likely behind some recent (and appropriate in the circumstances) immigration denials. These denials are further impacting industry negatively and the general situation is widening the "them and us" divide. I consider that to be a disaster. How would you describe it?
I consider it a moan on behalf of the mafia of the mediocre.
I had a look at the website of JC’s trailblazing firm. It lists 5 partners, 2 Caymanian and 3 US. It would appear that the last 3 partners admitted were all expats. These had been with the firm in Cayman for between 5 and 9 years.
Why would this be I wonder? Shortage of good Caymanian candidates maybe? Perhaps a little too much emphasis on nationality in the early days for the world firm now? A conspiracy in this bastion of Caymanian values? I’m sure someone will put me right.
"intelligent quotient"
This is what they would like you to believe. They come with their false papers and NO EXPERIENCE we the not so smart CAYMANIAN’S have to train them. They are fast and smooth talkers and they know just how to kiss to get what they want. When a CAYMANIAN has decided I have my experience and i am prepared to work hard therefore I don’t need to kiss, back news and make false tales on others to keep my job. I don’t have to go to the bar and drink my boss under the table and pretend that i like him or her. This is why we CAYMANIAN’S who honestly will work get such a hard time. This is what we have to compete with in the work place and a lot more.
Dear Anonymous 14.28 – i appreciate your sense of humour, very funny. Though i fear some people may however think that you are being serious!
They probably think you believe that expats not only lie on their CV’s (all of which are checked in business), but also have some machiavelian plan to oust the Caymanian collegue from the company? Who would have thought!
They probably also think you believe that all financial services expats eat Caymanian babes for breakfast before coming into work.
Best set them straight and clear up the fact that it was a joke!
Sorry to dissappoint you but it is a fact. If good back ground searches were to be carried out on many of the expats they would not be able to obtain jobs here in the Cayman Islands. And no they don’t eat our children for breakfast they just prevent you from providing a breakfast for them. Sorry no hard feeling against the expat community but just the truth.
no hard feeling against the expat community and yet you call many of the expats liars?? you do understand that every financial company does do background checks on prospective employees don’t you? No financial firm would ever go through the rigmoral and cost of employing someone without first do some background checks. It takes minutes and very little money to confirm that an employee says who they say they are – and it costs an awful lot of money to get someone over here and to pay their full remuneration. not something they do on a whim.
You are being ridiculous, this is not a consipracy against you perpetrated by all employers and expats.
If you were able to give just one example of a financial services employee who falsified their qualifications or experience i would rescind my protest. Just one example – Ellio doesn’t count remember.
If you have an issue, it is not with the expat, it is with the Caymanian business owners who employ the expat over the Caymanian. Simple as that. Ask them why over the last 30years they keep employing expats over the cheaper Caymanian? Difficult one to answer?
Because, if you are right, haveing conducted all those background checks and made countless other investments in bringing the expat out here, the last thing a businessman wants to do is admit to immigration that a qualified (although perhaps slightly less experienced) Caymanian has applied for the position on renewal of a work permit.
I work in this industry and get CV every week from persons wanting to move and live here. The agencies call everyday, some local and some new ones from overseas wanted to place candidates here.
So I am not sure that the industry is really feeling a pinch or for that matter that the currrent Immigration Laws are really scaring people away.
Amen to that….I’m so tired of unsolicited calls seeking to place someone from overseas in Cayman – I try not to take the calls anymore!
I really hope Mac does not relax immigration laws so much that the expat population grows so much that it overtakes the local population – and I say this as an expat.
Given the attitutes of some expats towards Caymanians, I believe this would lead to increased social problems, which is not good for anyone living here.
Both communities need to realise that this country will be the best it can be if everyone works together for a common goal.
Caymanians wake up…..here comes several thousand more McKeeva Bush status grants in disguise !!!!!!!
I hope so!
I see where discrimination is still factor in the cayman islands. If one work and live in a country and want to become a permanent resident or a citizen ,it should be looked on as respect? People who choose to change their status, is not putting a strain on the country they are there because they want to.I suggest to the people of the cayman to be more acceptable to others, not all people enter your shore are criminals , most aer people who are looking for a beautiful place like the cayman to call home.I am a jamaican and I’ve seen a lot of Caymanian living and conducting business in Jamaica. What would it look like for me or anyone so tell a caymanian you can’t stay here? All people of the world have the right to choose , the world is God’s gift to us all.Therefore give mr. bush a chance.
Lol!
People – wake up!
Smell the coffee – it has been sitting upon the kitchen counter for decades now!
The "financial industry" of the Cayman Islands is not and never was intended for us Caymanians – not by any substantial measures that is.
(The following should be read with the understanding that the blatant and undeniable discrimination that takes place internally within the Caymanian professional workplace is purposely disregarded.)
Too many of us are looking at this from an overly-localised perspective.
There exists a well-connected and influential global (albeit centralised in USA / UK / EU) "boy’s club" and all of our major firms feel the need to appear as attractive to them as possible.
Having a high number of local (Caymanian) professionals at the upper levels of these firms would decrease their attractability to both international professionals and clients. This would in turn negatively affect their potential to hire the best of the best and furthermore, their ability to charge the highest rates of fees for their expertise.
If an outsider witnesses a large percentage of Caymanian employees in any firm it casts the impression (to them) of the institution being of the sub-par variety. They will assume the firm is running some sort of community program. This is the harsh reality folks – like it or lump it.
It is to a point where Ghanian, Brazilian, Chinese, Indian, (and of course Brits, Canadian, Americans, Europeans) professionals all have a better chance of upward mobility in this country – simply because they at least bring with them the "exotic factor".
Do I agree with this? Of course not – but what can you do? To demand great change is to demand for these firms to put their reputation and lucrative livelihood on the line – regardless of the fact that it is founded upon fickle, prejudicial and often xenophobic / racist principles.
I’m sure many will disagree with my points but I am used to that. Cayman is quite possibly the greatest society of denial known to mankind.
In any event, all blame cannot be awarded to the aforementioned players and factors. Perhaps more of us should question why we are so blindly fighting each other tooth and nail in order to secure our tumultuous spot in an often very unwelcoming environment.
Far too many young Caymanians (parents included) place far too much value on certain sectors of our economy. I can recall a former classmate of mine, who upon successful completion of a sports related degree program, told me of their disbelief (I’m being nice here – the person was border line manic depression) by the reaction of his elder Caymanians voicing their "disappointment" in the individual "only getting a sports degree"!!
THINK ABOUT THAT PEOPLE!!
The expats that do make it to these shores(the legitimately accomplished ones that is) have competed with literally MILLIONS of professionals throughout the world, as we tend to seek out the cream of the crop.
Consider now the population of this country and yes, even the traditional culture and industries (or lack thereof) and put things into perspective.
Either way one chooses to look at the situation it is not a favourable situation to native, born and raised (real!) Caymanian – you guys know what I mean … come on! :o)
Furthermore, we also need to bear in mind that the expats that do make it here DO NOT necessarily represent the "standard" of individual, be it intellectually, culturally etc., from whence he or she came. Rest assured however, that they often pretend that such is the reality as it of course further secures their "right" or suitablility for the respective position.
This now leads us into the psychological element of this dilemma however, that is an area that I have not the time or strength at the moment.
I will though end on this point;
Does it strike anyone else as odd that the ONLY times that we Caymanians are awarded sole ownership of the financial industry are at those of lambasting, criticism and attack of it by the global press, politicians (UK PM’s / US Presidents no less), regulating bodies etc.?!
I tell you – those players at the top of this game are some sneaky, sly little "imps" (as my mother would say)!
Regards,
whodatis
whodatis you’re wrong.
You pick the best 10 out of a population of 25,000 (Caymanians)
vs.
you pick the best 10 of a population of 10,000,000 (foreigners)
Who would win in direct competition? Which is the higher caliber?
Exactly.
This does not exclude outliers who are excellent at their given profession but for the vast majority they simply don’t and can’t cut it.
The problem with your formula is this……the best 10 of a population of 10,000,000 (foreigners) are very busy in their home Country being very successful….they are not here in Cayman, however those that are here pretend to be part of that best 10. As a matter of fact none of the best of the 10,000,000 are in Cayman! In my 25 years of working within the financial industry I’ve met way too may of those ‘pretend best’ who live on top of the World while here and on return to their home Country they can demand no job of equivalent title, status, salary or benefits!
I agree with you. Bridger only warranted an 8,000 dollar a month salary in England but 27,000 tax free plus all expenses here. This is symptomatic of what is happening across industry here.
Now that really is offensive. You are insinsuating that Cayman Financial companies are only employing the dregs of the professional world? That they are stupid enough to employ the worst of the worst and pay them very good salary and benefits for doing nothing? Well thought out argument there, congrats!
Every expat financial worker here has worked for either a top law firm or investment bank overseas. Were they just employed because the firms were hoping that they might move out to Cayman and trick the people of Cayman at some point in the future? or do you think they were employed because they were the brightest and smarts people out of 300m in the US or 60m in the UK and would make the company as much money as they were capable of?
Companies choice who to employ out of a very large pot, you don’t trick your way into a top law firm or investment bank for crying out loud!
Agree with 9:13. Across the board, not just financial companies. How quick the head fills with the air of self-importance too.
And yet Caymanian companies and owners are still employing the "overseas dregs" over cheaper Caymanians.
Need I say more about your logic
Good description.
You are trying to distort the issue. The plain fact is that the expats we have here are for the most part mediocre, do not represent the top 0.1% (or the top 10% for that matter) of their home country population and would never have made it to the career heights that they have here in their home country. That is why they are here in the first place! However, through the fortuitous confluence of time and place they have amassed a fortune and soon begin to imagine that is because they were the brightest and the best.
So the argument is that the expats here are 10 times less intelligent that their on-shore counterparts, but the expats here are 10 times brighter than the local talent, so what does that say about the ability of the locals to compete in the real world? That’s a sad state of affairs for you guys…
Judging by your inability to grasp the issue you are undoubtedly one of the mediocre expats. Expats here are not ten times brighter than the local talent (although they would like for us to believe that). The assumption that they are any brighter at all flows from the flawed logic that they come from much larger populations. The correct response is the mere fact you come from a much larger population does not mean that you were among the elite of that population. Now read the above over slowly and think about it. Perhaps we will then get an intelligent post from you.
Explain ‘locals’. Some companies hiring ‘foreigners’ or ‘expats’ already on living on Island class them as ‘local’ and therefore are not paid as much as an ‘expat’ they bring in, not entitled to the rent payments, the airfares etc.. So yes, there are plenty of ‘locals’ foreign and/or Caymanian that have and do compete in the real world.
As for ‘talent’ – ha, ha….different story…Cayman definitely wins that one!
Not a sad state of affairs at all….your self-identification ‘Medium’.
Have a wonderful happy hour.
I agree. Its called "Big fish in a small pond".
With some notable exceptions, you are absolutely correct.
Words cannot express how correct you!!!!!!
Bermuda manages it with a similar population. Why cannot Cayman?
No – they don’t. Same crap, different flag.
Frank – in Bermuda not a single expatriate is a partner in any law firm. Every law firm there is thriving with purely Bermudians at the top. They are doing so well they have even expanded and have subsidiary operations here.
Meanwhile, there are almost no Caymanian partners in any of the larger firms here. There are some expatriates from Bermuda though.
Caymanians must not be as smart as Bermudians or even expatriates that have been to Bermuda I guess. What are your thoughts on the reason for the difference?
Mea culpa – I was not aware of that. Perhaps I’ve been reading too many blogs. I’ve gotten the sense that Bermudians have the same complaints as Caymanians, just at a slightly advanced stage. Sorry, no thoughts on the difference between Bermuda and Cayman law firms – don’t know enough history.
Frank, you are a Gentleman.
Very insightful post.
The notion that because you are expat and come from a country with a much larger population automatically means that you are brighter or more able than any Caymanian is absurd.
Does Cayman want to stay in the Financial Business world market? If so, we better learn fast that nobody will operate without the assurance that they will be able to work with the elite of qualified persons; may they either be a Caymanian or a foreigner. To re-arrange a qualified working team every few years makes no business sense. Many of Cayman’s competitors are arranging a "Welcome sign" to do business in their jurisdiction, and Cayman still believes that we can do this alone. There is a united Europe doing business as a team; why do we believe we don’t need huge foreign investment within our islands to survive? And with that, we need to give assurances to allow qualified persons to stay as long as their firm needs them. Why are we so afraid that Caymanians will be over-looked with promotions. I know many qualified Caymanians in all walks of the business sectors who hold top-positions. We must see the big picture here: no relaxing of immigration laws = means no investment growth. We are within a world wide turning point. Cayman has a lot of potential, IF we allow it to be an international world market and not manage it as a small town family business.
Sure we have lots of potential to be an international world market but for whose benefit? Look around and be honest with yourself….our ‘real’ Caymanian people have generally been neglected and left behind….they are not the ones living it up in South Sound, on 7-Mile Beach etc etc. Yes, perhaps a few of us have been very lucky and successful but I’m sorry, too many have been left out of our own so called ‘success story’ – I personally don’t see it is a success story as it’s not really been such a raving success for us. As it stands, the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer and more and more uneducated people will be brought in as ‘modern day slaves’ to build, maintain and act as security for all of the foreign investors grandiose projects while crime continues to rise. But as long as the rich are living it up in their well secured houses, making tons of money, hanging at the Ritz etc rubbing shoulders with other hoity toity pretend people, they do not concern themselves with the ‘other side’ of society as that would burst their fantasy bubble! If the financial Industryhad the Caymanian people’s interestat heart we would have known that years ago and would have seen the positive results of that; unfortunately that is not the case – the financial industry generally is concerned with personal agendas ie individual success stories to write home about. And when the going gets real tough – only the Caymanian people will remain.
Although foreign expertise is all good at times, I have to disagree with this idea. Obviously no one thinks about the Caymanian people anymore and the generations yet to come. We’re fighting our own people out of these Islands and out of these "high-ranking" positions as if to say that we’re not competent enough to fulfill these jobs. There are many qualified Caymanians on Island capable of taking up these posts so I see no need for bringing in unnecessary workforce and implementing 5 year work permits. Being currently away at University and after interacting with many students from the Caribbean in particular, it is amazing to hear how locals in their countries have infiltrated each sector and are holding the highest positions, and so it breaks my heart that we are so so dependent on foreign expertise. There is always the debate that Caymanian people are not as qualified but it is like a cycle in life…if we are not given a chance to gain the needed experience, how do we expect our people to advance? As the Hon. Ezzard Miller said, we are going to be locked out of these positions, worse if they plan to renew the permits. Life is already hard as it is on the Islands which is evident from the increasing crime amongst the youth. So I think that politicians need to wake up and start thinking more long term about the decisions that they make and the impact that they will have on my generation now and on the rest to come before it is too late. Please think of us….
A young Caymanian
Without these drastic changes Cayman will continue it’s downward spiral as the financial services firms continue to take their business overseas.
To ensure Cayman becomes more competitive in the global market place there needs to be some flexibility to ensure companies can employ highly qualified individuals. Although we have seen some young Caymanians come through to become major players in these companies there is still a lack of talent and that talent is still not of the required level.
As discussed before on these forums, the kind of jobs that these 5 year work permits would apply to are the very senior positions which need specialised skills. This does not mean merely a university graduate with a minimal pass rate but somebody that has excelled and then continued their education and probably got their MBA, a CPA/CFA or other professional qualification and a lot of experience in working in the international business community.
Caymanians that graduate from university here or abroad hav plentty of opportunities to get into these industries but like everybody else in the world who is in the same industries they have to start at the bottom. Any expat working in these industries here will have started at the bottom and worked their way up by improving skills, knowledge, getting new qualifications etc.
Unfortunately because of some bad parenting and poor immigration practices, the island is in a position where it’s youth generation has grown up with an entitlement mentality and think they deserve these high level positions regardless of their skills, qualifications and experience. This has caused them to become slack at school and slack in the workplace.
Those Caymanians that work hard at school and get into good overseas universities will become the next generation of fund managers and accountants etc but unfortunately there is not enough of these. The calibre of students coming out of Uni locally is nowhere near the standard that is required of these big companies. They wouldn’t take these individuals on at their offices in New York, London, Tokyo etc so why would they take them on here?
Good luck with your university course. Hopefully by applying yourself and gaining some work experience at an international employer you can return with the kind of skills and attitude that the financial services industry is crying out for. Be prepared to start at the bottom in graduate trainee roles and through hard work and effort you will start to climb the ladder.
Well said!! I completely agree. There must also be continuous learning.
During these hard times there are less jobs available, yes, but if a Caymanian is qualified (and displays a responsible and deserving attitude), he/she will get the job – it is the law even though it is not always recognized/strictly enforced. If a company’s intention is to weed out expats and replace them with able Caymanians as they apply, this proposition would hurt them, but then again they don’t have to sign off on the 5 year permits to start with. But in most cases, unless a firm has an employee which is incapable of doing his/her job, is soon to retire or his/her permit is soon to expire, the position is not advertised whether it be to Caymanians or expats. And essentially, they could just renew the one-year permits until the employee is no longer legally suitable for the position without considering replacing him/her with a Caymanian until this time. So with these 5 year permits, it’s assumed that the employee is willing to work the full term, and may have intended to do so whether or not these permits were implemented.
Ezzard’s point makes little sense unless this will trump the rollover law, which hasn’t been determined. This makes sense for a less important role in an organization, but even then Caymanians should be in these positions to begin with. However, this can’t occur since the majority of us are not willing to do what it takes to take on these jobs – ie undertaking the appropriate education, proving themselves as true assets to the community and showing a sense of respect for themselves and their potential work environment. We should not hold this sense of entitlement unless it is rightly deserved.
And this is coming from Caymanian who recently graduated from an overseas institution and can admit to having a well-deserved and well-paying job.
Maybe Mac should consider an arrangement whereby finance professionals can stay as long as they need to, but are not eligible for status. This would create more stability in the workforce.
I am sure there are many people who would happily work here uninterrupted who do not wish to apply for status.
I would state however, that this should only be for professions where there is a severe shortage of Caymanians and not all professions. It would not be right for expats to stay here for longer periods to the detriment of Caymanian workers.
This is how they do it in Dubai.
Foreign (guest) workers aka expats can come in and know they can stay and work for as long as they’d like to as long as they keep a clean record. However, they know up front that they will never be able to qualify for citizenship or the right to vote.
Yes, but the European Convention on Human Rights and the European Convention on Nationality have no application there. If we want human rights wehave to give expats who are legally here for 10 years permanent rights. Rollover exemptions come with a price. Are the Caymanian people willing to pay it? I think they would be were they being given real opportunity, but regrettably that may not be the case in recent years. This is why we need balance. Next time you promote an expat without training a capable Caymanian to follow in their footsteps be aware that the price you may pay for the convenience may ultimately seriously damage the prospects of your industry.
I agree with you,
i think that’s something like the USA, whereby people can get a green card to live and work but are not allowed to vote or make any decisions.
Sorry – not legal.
I proposed this a couple of years ago as a middle ground for rollover and all the problem that brings. My suggestion was to have ANY worker stay as long as they wanted. They would get a specially classified permit that would be renewed as long as they wanted and they could not apply for residency.
All people want is stability and assurances.
Problem is, that is discriminatory. It goes against the rights of a person to apply for permanent status in any country in which they reside over a certain period, under certain international laws to which Cayman, through the UK, subscribes.
So instead, we have a brilliant solution called rollover – a solution that has seen friends unceremoniously kicked off island after giving years to their lives, jobs and the Caymanian community. It has torn helpers from kids, who have only ever known the one caregiver who spends all day with them while their parents work – Caymanian parents too.
The rollover has ensured we get a regular supply of criminal element. It does not take a genius to figure that if you get 1-2 bad apples in 10, and you start rolling over everyone – good apples and bad – that over time your percentage of bad apples is going to increase.
So, sadly, international law and a flawed rollover policy, have instead left Cayman in a position that has lead to more anti-foreigner bashing than ever. Our cohesive community of old is tearing apart.
It is time to seriously address the problem. I am not sure of all the answers, but I do know that the more you churn the inhabitants of a community, the less time and chance there is to build strong bonds that make it better.
Think about it, when we were growing up as Caymanians 30+ years ago, we all knew our neighbours. We welcomed new comers to our island, we wanted them to stay and grow with us.
In the last 15 years, we have basically held up a middle finger to all. We tell them to come, spend, help and leave. Sure Cayman had to grow, and now a days a lot of that growth can come from within, so we don’t need to have as many new people come in, but why kick off the perfectly happy, contributing members of our society in a protectionist way that makes us look like bigotted racists? That’s right, we Caymanians are our own worst enemies.
We should be welcoming those that are here to stay. Participate. Work WITH us. Work FOR us. With a welcoming attitude, come harmony and happiness. Sure some will be higher up the totem pole than us, and others below. But if we all work together, we will go a lot further and a lot faster than we do now.
If we all try and pull in ifferent directions we will go nowhere and we will all be frustrated at, and angry towards, each other. That is Cayman today, sadly.
Going back to the neighbourhoods of old I mentioned above, I ask one question, and think about your answer – do you even know your neighbour today? I don’t mean "know" to wave hi to, I truly mean know them.
If not, you are part of the problem!
Mr. Bush, please give due consideration to the Caymanians who will be able to replace many of these work perit holders in less than 5 years.
What ae you going to tell them?
Be unemployed for 5 years and drain theCayman society while we sit by and watch these permit holders drain the economy by repartiating wealth generated in Cayman, hoping that their 5 year permit will not be renewed?
This sounds like a recipe for unrest.
I stongly appeal to the UDP to handle immigration isses very carefully with kids gloves.
Te 2003 status grants didnt cause a riot as the eonomy as not in dire straits as we are in now where unemploment continues to soar.
Any decision made with respect to jobs must be to get Caymanians employed, not to grantmore work permits.
Mac is correct. By the way, after the first five years, automatic status.
xxxxx
That would be a certain recipe for disaster. When the whole country erupts into social unrest as a result how will that help the financial (or any other) industry? But perhaps that is your point.
social unrest as a result of financial services professionals, and their employers, being given some degree of certainty for planning their business and personal lives… well, that suggestion is plainly retarded. that is quite the imagination that you have. ; )
No – I think the social unrest referred to would be resulting from Caymanian financial services professionals, and their families, not having any degree of certainty for planning their business and personal lives as a result of persons from overseas lying on immigration applications and thereby displacing them.
Are you really so thickheaded, given the strong reaction of Caymanians to the 3000+ status grants, to think that this would be accepted and there would not be open rebellion?!! There would then Caymanian vs. expat crime and probably vice versa. You know, this is the problem with so many expats you really think you know it all.
Ezzard Miller just does not understand how business works or how to grow an economy. He is a pied piper leading his followers to ruin.
Looks as if the LOGB and Mr. Miller are about to lock horns. This is not just about 5 year permits. There is no doubt at all that Mr. Bush wants to allow the 5 year permittees to be able to apply for permanent residence. Chaos is about to descend upon us.
About to descend? Haven’t you been reading the news for the past 6 months?
LOL! Yes, I have and I know what you mean. What I mean is that it is about to reach catastrophic proportions.