Finger printing will be limited to permit holders
(CNS): The country’s premier has stated that he will not support a system that finger prints everyone who comes into the Cayman Islands as he says it could damage the tourism sector. The deputy governor revealed that government has acquired the necessary equipment, and the legislation to implement a system to fingerprint all future and existing work permit holders will be going before Cabinet shortly. Answering questions from Ezzard Miller in Finance Committee on Tuesday, Franz Manderson said that the goal had only ever been to fingerprint permit holders and not Caymanians or visitors.
Miller said that the printing system should apply to everyone coming in and not just work permit holders. He said he believed there was a greater threat to security from people entering Cayman without any information or the clearance required from permit holders so he said it would be sensible to implement the system across the board. He pointed to cases he had heard about where people were deported over and over again but the authorities were unaware because they were using false passports.
However, the premier, who was chairing the Finance Committee hearing, pointed out that such a move to encompass everybody who came in and out of Cayman was a much broader policy decision that was not confined to the deputy governor’s remit of security, as he said it would impact tourism.
“This is a much greater policy issue. I’m not going to agree to that as we are a tourist destination,” McKeeva Bush told Miller and said it was not something the committee could get into discussing there and then. The premier told the independent member that he acknowledged his position but the discussion would have to take place another time.
“I hear your position,” Bush added but made it clear it did not have his support. He said it would cost too much and it was not right to have people waiting in lines when they are tourists visiting the destination.
Miller said he did not believe that tourists would be impacted so badly by a biometric entry security system, which is common in other jurisdictions. The independent member said it would help to prevent people from abusing the system and queried what the position of the police commissioner would be, given that criminals were obviously getting into the country via the general entry as tourists.
Bush stated, however, that there were no conclusions about the system yet as discussions about the legal changes had only taken place a few weeks earlier and there was still work to be done before the issue would come before the Legislative Assembly.
The deputy governor confirmed the system would be installed at the airport and at the immigration office and there would be a significant programme to print existing residents as their work permits came up for renewal.
Category: Local News
It seems to me that if we finally have proper fingerprinting equipment in place, it would only make good sense for everyone to be fingerprinted. Think of the countless crimes that could have been solved if there were fingerprints to match those collected on the crime scene to. As far as it damaging the tourism sector, how so? I get fingerprinted every time I enter the U.S.A. and it doesn't stop me from returning. I have nothing to hide, so they can fingerprint me as many times as they'd like. It would seem to me that those who protest being fingerprinted might be worried they get caught doing somethign illegal later on.
There is an interesting irony in this: Mr. Miller, who has often been maligned as anti-expat, says “I’m not too worried about the work permit holders in that most of them would have to have a clean police record in order to get a work permit so we already know that they are of a certain calibre … I have greater concern about the people who just coming here through our immigration for a short period of time. It was my understanding all along that the biometric identification that was going to be provided by immigration was going to be all inclusive, including Caymanians,” while the Premier, who is believed to be pro-expat, says it must be imposed on permit holders but not on Caymanians.
I hope this means I don't have to carry that pointless white card in and out of the country every time….
I actually think this is a good idea, I am an expat (been here a long time) and I wonder how some work permit holders get here in the first place and how they come back to the Islands after doing some terrible things here. Gone one year, return the next…. I say install these fingerprint readers as soon as possible.
0909 Expat to another expat I agree with you, because many of us expats have clean record, we work hard here, we come from decent homes and families, and we look around and see next door criminals working here and wonder how they got in.
Yes fingerprint them, their are too many criminals on work permit here. I blame immigration Department, because they have been ignoring request from the public to stop taking these false police records from people. They are bought. Are you people deaf or what?
When the Immigration receive, for example 20 applications for a day all they have to do is enter all the names and address in their system , which is being done anyway. The cost of the overseas police record application is collected by the Immigration Department from the applicat or application company. Compile a list and send a fax off to that country, or email to that country the list of 20 applicants to the Records Department. sit back patiently and wait for a week. Boom!! a reply has arrived with the good bad and ugly reports. Then they take it from there. Immigration just do not want to do this I do not know why. So they are to blame for criminals here on work permit. Come on Immigration you have to do better, and they are not only from the caribbean, they are from all over.
Really "Mr Expat"?
If you were an expat you would know to get a work permit you need medical and police clearance. As for expats commiting crimes then being allowed to return, please supply your examples
It really sounds like you are making it up or are you just a troll?
Well all the new US passports have tracking bar code…..just like your new cell phone. Ask Slim he No.1 on Forbes list.
DISCRIMINATION, DISCRIMINATION AND DISCRIMINATION ! Let them try it with me, I will get the best lawyer on their asses and take it to the highest supreme court. If you are going to implement a policy such as this, it should be across the board, not just applied to the people most unlikely to commit crimes here. Apply it equally to all residents, not just permit-holders, and to all tourists too. What? Don't you think some of them come here under the guise of visiting, to carry out other things? But if you really want to stop crime atits root, look at yourself in the mirror, because it is your own that is doing the majority of it and ending up at Northward.
The only comment worth reading is: "We would subject our Law"…
This "country" and its "government is one big joke.
This is ridiculous! It is not the average work permit holder undertaking all this crime – it is a lot of local people and who knows which visitors – especially as we have direct flights to and from Honduras – the most violent country on Earth!!
To be honest this looks like it is aimed at the Jamaican labor and such, but all permit holders get included so that it's not so obvious.
Since, as you acknowledge, Jamaicans are not the only permit holders and it is not limited to specific occupations how did you reach the conclusion that it is aimed at the Jamaican labour, particularly given the Premier's declared love for Jamaica and Jamaicans?
This should help in maybe 10% of the crimes, but you have to wonder why they didn't add the comparablysmall expense and add Caymanians to assist in the other 90% of crimes?
What have Caymanians got to hide?
But this is typical the Civil servants recently stating it is ok for expats to have their fingerprints and DNA collected, but it is against their privacy to have swipecards that show when they leave and arrive at work
What a good christian country, ho ho ho
I agree that all should be tested with Caymanians being included but your insinuation about 90% of the crime stemming from Caymanians was unnecessary and very ignorant.
But 90% of the crime does come from Caymanians so what are you complaining about?
No one knows what percentage is committed by Caymanians. A high proportion of crimes are unsolved.
Every living soul on the Islands should be finger printed and the whole nine yards. I have nothing to hide, so why should I worry about it. It can start from birth, to make sure no one escapes the process. I think DNA and finger printing could solve numerous crimes committed here and abroad.
When I go into the US or elsewhere as a tourist and is finger printed every time, I do not complain. #Thatisall
When visiting the US, they take and compare your photo and fingerprints to their current database, then they are deleted from their files if there is no match, the records are not kept, so unlike Cayman.
Um, not sure if thats really true in practice though. its amazing how supposedly "deleted" records can stil pop up and haunt you decades later…
Just when I thought Mckeeba was entirely uneducated; He comes up with a sensible idea!
If finger printing is really something that the government decides to implement then it should not be limited to work permit holders, finger printing should be done by everyone who lives in the Cayman Islands.
0842, DOES aMERICA FINGERPRINT AMERICANS? Do England fingerprint the British? , do Canada fingerprint Canadians? . What has happened to Cayman is that we need to get rid of you all of you and allow a clean batch of people some good opportunity to work here. Spies!!!
This will cost a great deal of money to put into action and to administer. It will have almost no benefit. The resources would be better applied elsewhere. This is a classic political "sound bite" policy that resonates with voters but is a poorly thought out idea.
I have to say, Mr Bush, this is very good. This is something should have been done ages ago. I do not know why Cayman remain in the dark ages on such things, when even our neighbour Cuba has it for years. Although Cuba finger prints every one. Mr Bush I support this, and I agree take one step at a time with it. If you see that every body needs to be fingerprinted, then so be it.
Cuba is famed for its high human rights standards.
Fingure print everyone that way we can catch the criminals before they enter our streets and send them back, if we had this we might have caught the two canadian bandits that stole our $$$$.
23:02 Not that I do not agree with what you are saying, but the problem in Cayman is this. We are too darn Licky, licky to foreign accent.
Once you have an accent and you are not Caymanian, you are given a job right away, you are not checked out whether you are a murderer, theiving bandit, rapist or plain old liar. Many Caymanians and expatriate companies are too ashamed to even report how they have been taken.
These people are stealing out your companies right under your eyes because you trust them. Park and watch your night staff with a Dick Tracy hat. Watch those who are hanging around every day for free meals and take home when its closing time.
XXXX all the fast food, would you all give left over food to the needing hungry who cannot afford to buy at closing time. NO!! i HAVE HEARD PEOPLE ASK, and the staff say "NOOO we have to put it in the garbage. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE" But when it is closing time see who goes with it. So I am not one bit sorry for these businesses. As for the two Canadian Bandits that stole our $$$$$ Those are only two that you have heard about. The poor Caymanians aint going anywhere, but your foreign staff is fixing your business. Finger print them McKeeva, and foot print them too.
All work permit applicants have to supply a clear Police Clearance certificate.
It is just untrue that non-Caymanians coming here are criminal.
Just look at the names of the criminals that have been caught here. Almost all are home grown Caymanians.
This is NOT to say that all or even most Caymanians are dishonest.
11:17 are you forgetting that this is we country. So if we have home grown criminals here, they belong to us, that does not mean that we need outside criminals here too. We are behind the Premier with this, so give it up now or dont move until 7 years.
Some permit holders come from countries where Police Clearance Certificates can be bought for a bribe. Others come from the UK where a simple affidavit of no convictions by the permitholder will suffice: "honest, I am not a criminal". Some permitholders engage in white collar crimes. There are permit holders who have come and committed heinous crimes. Some are deported and return under assumed identities. Many of those in the prisons who are identified as Caymanian are in fact of other nationalities but who have obtained Caymanian status. Obviously you cannot speak for all permit holders. None of that is to say that all or even most permit holders are criminals.
"This is NOT to say that all or even most Caymanians are dishonest".
How generous of you! But the majority are, right? SMH.
BTW you cannot tell who is or is not a "home-grown Caymanian" by their surnames these days.
This is to weed out people who get a passport commit a crime and then get a new passport with a different name to reenter the country.
2208 I do not know why some people cannot see this, Excuses and compplaints because there are too many criminals here on work permit. So they are afraid to leave and comeback and have their prints taken. It is one of the best things that could ever happen to this country.. and anyone who do not agree has something or someone to hide, mark my word.
That goes for you too. Do you have anything to hide? If not, you should have no objectionsto giving up your fingerprints too. Do it for the love of your country, if nothing else.
Hello I know you do not want your adorable neighbor to do such a thing, we are friends. Stop it before I slap your hand.
Yes but it will only work if the culprit has a work permit. I suspect many of them do not and may come in as visitors. It should be required for any country that requires a visa to enter.
EVERYONE should be required to provide fingerprints no questions ask. Most up to date countries fingerprint visiter and residents, so why not here in the Caymans
If we did that, we would be the only territory on this planet to require such biometric data. And what would be the point? We don't have the resources, supercomputers, labs, or police competency to work with prints even if we had some good ones to take, and what electronic print database would we match them against?!?
I for one would want to see everyone on this island fingerprinted.Caymanians and work permit holders.If you have nothing to hide then you dont have to worry about giving your prints to the Police or whomever will be appointed to do this.Dont start saying that this infringes on human rights because in this case I dont see why it should be considered a problem along those lines.Lets get with it and get it done.The sooner the better.
The debate about who gets fingerprinted is a valid one but I will set that aside and look at the logistics of the present proposal.
If we are going to do it just for WP holders can we please avoid doing it at the airport. We already have severe congestion at immigration and it is not the best experiecne for anybody – tourist, WP holder, PR or Caymanian. Slowing down the processing of WP holders at the airport delays everyone.
All you need to do is make it a requirement of WP that within 10 days of first entry on WP the holder attend immigration office downtown to have their fingerprints taken. If they do not then Employer gets final warning and 10 days later the Permit is revoked and the employer has some serious questions to be answered before they get anoother employee WP granted. When the fingerprints are taken the work permit gets stamped to show fingerprints held (in code -we don't need to go advertising this stuff). Anyone coming in with WP not showing that – ie a new permit holding entrant or an exsisting one coming back into the country for the first time after this lw comes into effect – gets told to go to downtown immigrationwithin 10 days and the consequences of not doing so. A note is then sent to downtown immigration to that effect that that notification has been given and the permit is diarised accordingly.
What you propose would be an enforcement nightmare and the damage have been done in 10 days.
How racist can you get!!!!
19:29 Do you have something to hide. Well ye better leave now, because we will be checking out your fingers when you go on vacation and come back.
How often do you read in Cayman News Service that the "robber was a "non-caymanian with an english/ "canadian/ philipino accent"? The vast majority of crime is home-grown – that's where the finger-printing would be most effective
Do you know how many roberies have taken place in the past few years, and just how many do you think have gotten caught?
I notice how you cleverly omitted two particular expat nationalities whom we should indeed be concerned about with crime.
We understand that you believe that is the case but we simply do not have the evidence to show that. Obviously unless a robber is actually identified there is no way of determining his nationality.
Just wait until the convictions are overturned for use of illegal evidence. It will be a criminal appeal lawyer's field day.
I don't see the point in implenting this if it's only going to be used for work permit holders! It sure is a waste of money!
The last time I visited the US, I was finger printed & photo id'd !!
Why can't it be that way here?! & don't tell me no BS!! If it it was implemented across the board, that just means that our islands would be more transparent…something the UDP is obviously against.
When visiting the US, they take and compare your photo and fingerprints to their current database, then they are deleted from their files if there is no match, the records are not kept, so unlike Cayman.
If you have a database to compare them to then they obviously have not deleted the fingerprints from their records.
Did you ever see a US or Canadian resident finger printed at immigration in the US?
11:15 I do not know which airport you go to, but in Miami, EVERYBODY puts their finger in that little hole and is asked to look into the Camera,. THAT IS FINGER PRINTING.
Not so my friend, Canadians are not fingerprinted or photographed when entering the United States. In fact Canadians can get in the US Residents/Citizens Line. Check it out.
20:07 Do we Caymanians really thing that Jamaicans are the Biggest criminals here? If we are really thinking that, we are so wrong. We are missing the boat, because of colour, red mouth and straight hair. Go figure it out and find out where most of the criminals are comming from. Finger print them all.
Actually, Homeland secruity is introducing automated booths for returning U.S. Citizens/Residents in which they will need to take their fingerprints to match with the passport.
Finally Caymanian people get a little break from this onslaught.
See ya and i don't want to be ya. Its time we take a stand against certain criminal elements and types that are starting to get set up in the island just a matter of time before they become a real organised problem. To those on here crying foul and hating . No one is compelling you to stay?
good idea, seeing that most the crimes nowadays are done by these juvenile caymanian kids! *smh*
these are not caymanian kids, go back through their generations far enough and you will find they had expat descendants.
I see. Following your "argument"/"clarification"/insight" it would appear that all this talk about Caymanian and Status and Rollover is now irrelevant. What a catharsis.
Well done. In a sentence you have defined what successive Governments and Immigration Boards have failed to achieve – the definition of a real Caymanian. We are all linear expat! Hooray. No fingerprinting for anyone. No work permits either. You have set us free – or did you open a can of worms?
"descendants"?
"Miller said that the printing system should apply to everyone coming in and not just work permit holders." And that is why Miller can never be Premier. He is too dogmatic and his policies will run away the tourists. Think about the cost this will accrue if implemented. You will need more civil servants hired just to take people's finger prints.
OH oh nuff man a leave this ya place oh well another loss of work permit revenue for our gowernment Kudos to immigration department for a proactive approach to the crime situation in Cayman local criminals go to jail foreign ones need to go home!
Justice 4 dont forget the land ya belong te we. So we go jail if we want to and yes foreign criminals must go home. Gee wiz what have you been eating.
We would subject our law abiding permit holders to the indignity of requiring prints, while every resident lock their doors in fear of Cayman's homegrown youths and gangs which perpetrate the most heinous crimes and occupy our prisons. Add to that a lack of a forensics capability, the inability of the police to match a print, prosecution/ evidentiary errors, strained national finances, and you can see this is yet another election-year boondoggle which we all will ultimately pay for. I mean, the police (whereever they are) don't even have modern systems nor the ability to run a license plate number to trace vehicle owners. What takes moments in modern nations takes weeks here – if ever! So let's start with the simple crime fighting measures and policies that could advance us to a 1980's standard of crime fighting before we go all high tech. Miller, you've lost my vote. Whoever ordered the machines without taking into consideration the capabilities of our police force, you're not fit for office. Can we please get some adults in government for 2013?
It's not like we are planning on segregating foreigners or anything…
Just treating them differently than the rest of the population…
Oh well.. Another day in paradise..
What does the Bill of Rights say on discrimination? Would the finger-printing of a part of the population be deemed to be discriminatory? I'm asking as I don't know the answer.
The Bill of Rights must be read alongside the ECHR which will alway trump the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. One does not need to get to the discrimination section, albeit it that that section will not affect this issue much. Rather the rights of privacy are triggered here. The taking of fingerprints or DNA for use in a generally accessible database for police when the taking of that evidence was not linked to a specific crime is illegal. So, at its highest, immigration will be able to retain fingerprint information while someone is on a permit, but they cannot give that information to anyone else, including the police, and they would have to destroy the information once the permit holder leaves.
Destroying the prints once the permit holder leaves could defeat the purpose. What if the permitholder was deported and then sought to return under an assumed identity?
The Island needs a comprehensive data base of EVERYONE'S fingerprints and biometric information. Once in place, it will play an importANT role in fighting crime, IF it is updated regularly and used properly.
Sure Big Brother, sounds good to me…
Has the Government said what this scheme is supposed to achieve? It seems pointless to me, unless it covers everyone.
It should be every person who lives on the island. What the heck is the point of only doing work permit holders?? These are not the ones committing the crimes. Are we afraid to do locals also because there mat be implications of a friend or family member involved in something??? Hmmmm?
The US fingerprints everyone – so should we!
The US does not observe the same human rights standards as the British territory. Two words – Guantanamo Bay.
The USA DOES NOT fingerprint everyone. No Canadians or Americans are fingerprinted on entry. They also have a database and banks and banks of supercomputer capacity to crunch the biometric data and it costs billions.
Overall, I think it is a stupid, expensive and time consuming idea, that will be of little, if any benefit.
But, if you are going to implement it, it needs to be accros the board, including Caymanians (and yes, I am Caymanian). The majority of the Northward and Fairbanks prisoners are Caymanian. So,why should Caymanians involved in crime, past, present or future, be given an advantage by not having a record of their prints?
Brilliant scheme. Let's fingerprint all those people who have already provided medical checks, clearance certificates, references, proof of dwelling and photographs to Immigration. I feel so much safer now.
Let's NOT fingerprint the rest of the general population ( who, apparently, provide 70% of the prison population) because of…………what? Don't start on Privacy and Human Rights issues – we can't even get our voiting system in order.
All residents should have a national ID card with fingerprints mandatory! This will help protect us and also fight crime. I hate visiting other countries and have to take my passport with me as ID as they do not accept a Cayman drivers license as authentic ID.
Why would tourists have a problem being fingerprinted? Just make them do it once when they first enter (along with every other Caymanian, Resident, etc.). They will be in the "system" and won't even think about it again. You don't have to make everyone do it all the time. If everything is linked properly then it will show their print was scanned already when they go through Immigration and they don't need to scan it again. That way when crimes are committed we have a resource to compare evidence to. HELLO people common sense!!!!! Do we stop going to the USA because they fingerprint AND Photo ID us? No. So what's the problem?
….and every cruise ship passenger too? You're on crack. Without an ability to check these prints against a relevant record base, what is the purpose of this exercise? Is Immigration going to procure a room full of supercomputers to crunch this data? I very much doubt that.
I wold imagine that collecting the prints in this way will form the database.
Problem–a huge number of tourists are from the US. They are not used to being fingerprinted to go to the Caribbean. They may do it but they will not like it. So why mess with them unless you think the tourists are a big crime problem.
17:49 SHUT UP !! All those European Canadian, and American Tourist know full well that they are finger printed every where they go. NOW THE THOUGHTS that they should not be fingerprinted because they come to the Caribbean. WELL MY WORD!!! what do you people thing? The days of Grass skirts and and running naked under coconut tress is over.
The only thing you cannot get in Cayman from Foreign is the "F" which stands for foreigh. Anything else is here, if not it can be here ny night fall, so relax and enjoy the Island.
Fimger printing should be introduced as a part of the visa system so that it applies only to the nationals of those countries which require a visa for Cayman. There is a reason the visa is required in the first place.
As a tourist, I would certainly not allow my fingerprints to be taken.
20:03 Where are you from MARS?? BECAUSE every time I passthrough immigration in the USA, Canada, London, Cuba, etc. They take my prints. So where have you been travelling to as a tourist. GEORGE tOWN TO EAST END????
UK does not fingerprint their nationals
0840 so then tell me why una want McKeeva Bush finger print Caymanians
That's because of where you are from and where you are going. US tourists dfo not get fingerprinted to travel elsewhere in the Caribbean. this will just make Cayman a little less competitive if you do it to tourists.
As fingerprinting is required in the US and I virtually all who live in Cayman visit the US from time to time, can I assume that you are from the US and thus not used to being fingerprinted?
If so then isn't it hypocritical to object to something that your country is the main proponent of?
Err .. cruiseships – can you imagine how long it would take for all the passengers to be fingerprinted.
another day in wonderland…. fyi mr premier…caymanians commit 90% of crime in cayman…
I don't think this should be limtied WP holders. However, I understand that you feel that way but we simply do not know what proportion of crime is committed by Caymanians.
The use of this information for any purposes other than immigration enforcement will be illegal under the ECHR. Accordingly only immigration must be allowed to access it.
Finger print ALL! Right down to the DOGS! #Thatisall