Civil service pay to be cut
(CNS): Despite the Civil Service Association’s fundamental objections to any changes in terms and conditions of employment for public sector workers, the government has announced that it is considering a 2% reduction in salaries for public servants making more than $3,000 per month. In a press statement late Friday afternoon, the government said civil servants would receive, in return for the cut, four days of paid leave to be taken by 30 June 2010. Chief Secretary Donovan Ebanks said the temporary measure would go into effect in October 2009 and conclude in June 2010, the end of government’s financial year.
He said the reduction would not apply to public servants who make $3,000 per month or less, or to persons employed as classroom teachers on a daily basis by the Education Department. The four days leave is to be taken before the end of the 2010 fiscal year EBanks stated adding that the Chief Secretary’s Office would issue more information on the proposal early next week.
Christen Suckoo, Vice President of the Cayman Islands Civil Service Association, said the management would be calling an immediate meeting of the membership to discuss the cut. He confirmed that the association stood by its position that there should be no changes to the terms and conditions of civil servants employment.
“In all good conscience civil servants cannot agree with government implementing policies that could be against the law,” Suckoo told CNS. “It is our job to protect government so we can’t agree with them doing something that could be illegal.”
James Watler President of the CICSA said that an official response would be issued as soon as the association had time to digest the proposal as they had been led to believe there would not be a pay cut.
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Category: Headline News
Just wait until all these new commissions, secretariats etc mandated by the new constitution kick in. That’s when we will see a real explosion in the number of civil servants.
So if you’re on $3,000 a month you get a $60 pay cut a month, over the 9 months that is $540. In return you get 4 days of paid vacation, so $135 a day.
Now say the employee gets paid for 40 hours a 5 day week so 2,080 hours a year, then his annual salary of $36,000 means that it would cost $17.30 an hour or $138 a day to employee him.
So it seems to me that forget the cut and free vacation, the bottom line is you are being offered 4 days unpaid vacation a year.
Frankly if this is done it should really be a choice fro the employee.
Ya’ll ALL need to simmer down. I couldn’t even read more than 3 posts out of this sandbox because of all the arguing and name calling.
Ok CNS, here’s one for you, the two PS’s that were recently removed by the current Government still remain on the Government’s payroll together earning over $300,000 per year in salaries and benefits.
How do you reconcile that situation with the current cost cutting measures?
How about the Politicians leading by example? They voted themselves 20-35% raises over the past four years…how about reversing those undeserved pay raises?…that neither side (PPM or UDP) said anything against.
And how about a sliding scale approach to applying this, with those making the most also taking the greater reduction in pay. Again, especially Politicians who mostly have other means of income in addition to their very high salaries…and other government allowances.
People who are making less than $5k per month cannot afford this…while those making above…especially above 8k (like bloated management and politicians) would not even notice 2%…they will only increase their allowances. They might notice 10-20% which for Politicians will only be giving up the "secret" raises they gave themselves over the past four years.
And they wonder why people are frustrated! And why crime is rising so rapidly?
Get rid of the Caymanian, who sit on their a** all day and do no work. Yes, you, you know who you are.
Um, this makes no sense. Cut their pay and give them 4 more days vacation. Um, that plan needs to go back to the drawing board. I think it should be 4 days UNPAID leave (which would work out to be approximately the 2% the wish to gain). I
The low lying fruit is about to be picked without exploring the countless cost savings and revenue measures put forward by the civil service.
How duplicitous for the govt. to accept obscene raises to their already bloated salaries while raking off 2% from civil servants, most of whom get paid less than these MLA’s.
My crude math indicates that no more than $5 million will be raised by cutting this 2%.
This means this is 5 million less potentially circulating in the Cayman economy.
Ironically this is about the same amount pumped into the economy through the CIDB govt stimulus, completely negating any effect of this policy.
When considering the relatively recent rise in volatility with respect to the outlook on the Cayman economy, chances are that civil servants and others are going to hold back even more on spending resulting in a spiral of economic contraction.
Surely there must be a better way forward
How about giving people a choice? Identify to the best of our ability those departments which appear overstaffed or inefficient. Give civil servants in those department (or areas of departments) earning more than $3,000 per month four choices: (1) take a four day work week, with resulting reduction in pay (yes, I know that not everyone can manage this, but you might be surprised at how many would make the sacrifices required to have an extra day of family time, particularly in the middle management area); (2) take a pay cut of a specified percent for a specified period of time (and someone clever with numbers could surely figure out what that percentage would have to be in order to make a meaningful difference – perhaps it should be on a sliding scale based on salary bands; (3) take early retirement; or (4) take an unpaid furlough or sabattical (and again, not everyone has the luxury but some people would surely love to take advantage of the opportunity to further their educations or travel, if they knew their job would be there when they finished).
Anyone who refuses to take any of the choices would have his or her name put in a hat. Ten percent of the people in the hat would lose their jobs.
2% cutfor those with salaries 3,000.00 and over, that is absurd. What is 220.00 per month to someone with an 11,000.00 a month salary? now..if anyone with salaries 3,000.00 – 6,000.00 will take a 2% cut and anyone with 6,000.00 – 10,000.00 take a 10% cut and anyone including the MLA 10,000.00 – 20,000.00 a month should take a 25% – 50% cut, thenwe will be talking some sense and displaying equality. In addition to those cuts, may I also suggest that all civil servants pay 20% on their Medical and contribute 2.5% to their monthly pension, like the private sector, then perhaps we can really see some profit appearing on the Government spreadsheets. If Government will also scale back on the numerous CFO’s, the HR Managers and let the Financial Secretary do the job he is highly being paid to do, without the Elected members interferrence, perhaps Government could operate better, their core business.
Said it before and I’ll say it again; the easiest way to cut government spending is to not renew expiring civil service contracts! No muss, no fuss and an immediate savings. Back fill the positions with Caymanianis only if truly needed and once and for all free ourselves from a outdated dependency on foreign labor. This is at least a start in the right direction!
I agree with anonymous 13:43
Don’t renew overseas government contracts (send me home for a year,I don’t mind taking a year off MR Mckeeva.)After you clean the mess i will comeback,no problem.
Dred and the others, I won’t actually be pulling my children from their current school, I was merely making a point based on the idiotic generalisations and assumptions posted prior and indeed since. Lets operate under a few assumptions of our own;
1. We are excluding those who make under $3000 and all classroom teachers, I estimate that leaves somewhere in the region of 2000-2500 affected by the reduction.
2. If we guess that the average salary of those is $5000 per month
3. The total savings based solely on salary reductions (I presume there would be further small savings based on reduced payments on Pensions, etc as a result of the reduced salary) whould therefore be between $200, 000 and $250, 000 over the ten month period based on the numbers above.
Cause and effect need to be considered. As a result, I may purchase 3 less cases of beer next month. The Goverment thereby loses on the duty levied on these goods, thereby further lowering their total savings. This, obviously, is just one example.
Additionally, it would have been nice to to have been informed of the potential of this measure by a means other than the local media. (Before you harp on about an email to all Government users, not all are lucky enough to have been assigned a Government email address, which is another story for another day which relates to the waste of funds by requiring one Department to pay another for such services).
The total savings here could be made and more by simply eliminating in the region of 5 unneccesary mid-management level positions (imagine, 5 salaries, 5 pensions, the health care costs for the employee and their families, etc), believe me, these postitions exist and their should be no need to elimiate the jobs of any Caymanians if it is set about in the right manner.
So is it really worth screwing with an already low morale within the service for the sake of 2%? I don’t think so, perhaps you do.
The 4 days of extra leave sounds great. Unfortunately I was unable to take all of my leave this past year due to work commitments anyway so it really doesn’t help me per say.
My figures are not based on any facts, just educated guesses.
I support the re-instatement of school fees for public schools, as long as they are at least double what they previously were but also recognise that the collection and enforcement of these fees could potentially cost more than it would be worth (given the ignorance of those who simply refuse to pay, much like their garbage fees, etc).
Having said all of that, I do believe I am intelligent enough to lend my support to this proposal as opposed the Pension proposal fiasco which would clearly have had devastating long term effects on all partys involved.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to go and take my two hour lunch break and plan exactly how I am going to set about doing 2% less work than I was before.
So if we take your low end (2,000 people affected) times your average salary (5,000 per month you say) that gives you 10,000,000 that’s ten million dollars.
Ok, now take that and times it by your ten months 10×10,000,000 that gives you 100,000,000 that’s one hundred million dollars. Then take 2% of that by multiplying the one hundred million dollars by .02 and that gives you $2 million.
Leave educated guesses to educated people!!!!
Oh yeah, I missed off a zero. Sorry about that and thanks for pointing it out. Really doesn’t change my point though. Just eliminate a few more positions.
Yeesh. With maths skills like that I should be next in line for the Financial Secretary position!
If your Math is correct, then the civil Servants stand to gain since the 4 days paid leave would cost Government 3 times the 2 percent pay cut.
I am very dumb so maybe you could do the Math for me using the same example above..
Good job Jonny Cake! ive agreed with about 95% of what you’ve said. And thank you for standing up to the expats that think they are better or smarter than us.. Don’t have a problem with expats, i do have a problem with the limeys that go around thinking they are better thinking we owe them something while having million dollar paying jobs and driving a damn beat up crv and paying 1100 a month for rent.. We need expats, yes.. can we just have the ones that know they’re place, do their jobs, and stay out of local issues and go the hell home when the job is done! Don’t apply for permanent residency or status, take the lil remaining money you have in your CI account and get out!! People make a country, and you obviously like our country better than yours! Think about that the next time you think you’re better or smarter than us *wink*..
I know I’m place, do you know you’re place?
lol this attempted insult is completely unintelligible –
even if i wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt- you used the wrong grammar – your "you’re" should have been "your" not the contracted "you’re" which means "you are" — got that?
"We need expats, yes.. can we just have the ones that know they’re place, do their jobs, and stay out of local issues and go the hell home when the job is done"
LOL, do you get it now??
I wasn’t even going to reply to this, because apparently, according to your grammar, you’re place is in Lighthouse son.
If people make a country, would it not be best for them to stay?
Just a thought.
To "if people make a country".. you’re obviously retarded, so let me break it down for you.. Great people (caymanians) make a great country (Cayman). so the next time expats think they’re better or smarter people than caymanians, maybe they should stop and ask themselves why they’re in this country (cayman) instead of their own.. I don’t think it’s just all about sucking the country dry of money and sending it back to whereever they came from.. Do your job, groom a young educated caymanian, to take over when u go back to where u came from, stay out of local issues/politics.. you cant vote, you have NO say! Don’t apply for residency so you can sit your limey ass in the top seat while holding young educated caymanians down, until you "decide" to retire. Even then you’ll just put some other expat in the seat even if the caymanian is qualified with the experience. get your job done and move the hell on out! You’ll miss Cayman alot more than Cayman will miss you! You can believe that!
Long gone are the days when civil servants were among the lowest paid members of society but if you listen you might think this was still so. Many operate private businesses, often taking contracts or orders from their own government departments (ever heard of conflict of interest?) and this is supposed to be against ‘standing orders’ but nothing is ever done about it. We are paying a so-called super-scale to those at the very top; 8, 9, 10 or more thousand dollars per month, to sit and read the newspaper all day. This is obscene!
Roy Tatum at 11:57 – good post. Handouts never work. My old economics lecturer used to go on about it every lecture: "There is no such thing as a free lunch – someone has to pay…eventually!"
Roy Tatum…… good objective post. As you said nothing is free. I sometimes wonder how many of our private residents really understand that WE are paying for the civil service. You are also correct….privitization will not solve the problem. Privitization + reduction of the CIG + new tax income streams + stronger tourism and financial services industries = economically stable country.
Lachlan MacTavish
Attention EVERYONE- is this not a BREACH of CONTRACT if the cut is not AGREED by each indivisual civil servant. Where does the Labour Law apply to this. As an employer, I have been repeatedly told by the Labour Office that I CANNOT cut an employees wage. Now we have the GOVERNMENT proposing to do the very samr thing they are enforicng that cant be done. DOUBLE STANDARD????
The fix to this is simple:
Cut pay only from those making over CI$75K per year (including MLA’s and Ministers) by 10%. I dont have the exact numbers; however I am sure that this would equate to at least $1,000,000.00 permonth. I also agree with the person who said to increase certain governement fees eg passports. A passport is valid for 10 years; however it cost 40 to renew. This is shameful; as this equates to CI$4.00 per year. The cost for a passport should be nothing less than CI$100.00 for 5 years or CI$150 for 10 years. Also, bring back the head tax than makes used to pay. Make this CI$25.00 per year for all males over 22 years old and see what this brings in for the treasury. Using a guesstimate that there are 15,000 males on island this tax would see the govt collecting somewehere in the region of some half million dollars.
Instead of all these fees going to a central depository, use it for specific projects.
This is just my 2 cents on the matter. And to close, Civil Servants are being held to ransome with this pay cut and it is JUST NOT RIGHT.
Wow, this is atrocious, can’t spell, have no facts and can’t do maths either.
I wonder why you are criticizing when your use of the “English Language” is so poor.
Duh! I wasn’t aware until recently, civil servants weren’t required to pay pension and health insurance and the government did it for them. That was a shocker. How did this begin? Were the jobs offered so distasteful they needed an extra "perk"? Were the wages so low this was used as a subsidy to attract people? And sorry without sounding racist was it perhaps assumed an elite sector of special Caymanians would become civil servants and therefore not have the same obligations as the rest of the ex-pat workforce? The Civil Servant Association appears to be much like a union. The one and only union representing workers on island. Am I wrong? And, like "associations" and/or unions of civil servants everywhere it can become a family occupation. Ie. My great-grandfather was a civil servant. He then got my grandfather a job. My grandfather then got my dad a job. And I’m a civil servant too. That’s alright,I guess. Maybe it’s a genetic disposition to be a civil servant. But unless this was negotiated by their "association" as a term of employment… there should be the same set of rules applying to benefits.. only the individual .. will receive. Pension and Health Insurance. Assuming you’re also paid for the work you do it’s that simple. Just like the rest of us have to pay for them. Without the sometimes dubious benefit of unions representing us.
On an unlevel playing field everything rolls. And it’s rolling down to the rest of the workers on the island. We take pay cuts AND pay pension and health insurance. Always have. Join us. Won’t you?
to poster 17:33 "i think what people are" Mr. Watler is not suggesting that he is representing all or the majority but he is representing CICSA – if you had attended the meetings you would know that and not be wasting time posting comments to incite unreset in the civil service. At no time was there ever a suggestion by CICSA that there were represeting all civil servants. What they are trying to do, and if you would cooperate with them is to get a clear picture of what civil servants think and feel about this whole matter so that representation can be made. The whole point of having CICSA is so that there is a body of people that government can come to and get representation from the civil servants. Mr. Watler has never suggested that we were not to take the pay cut all he said was that it is illegal. No amount of posting through this medium of any other medium is going to change the fact that it is illegal – it does not mean however that we dont have to agree to take this minimal pay cut.
and perhaps numbnuts, you’ll enlighten the rest of us by pointing to the english law precedent that shows that a 4 day furlough is an illegal act.
That’s how you people are, someone says something and you jump on the bandwagon without taking the time to research the matter for yourself and see if it holds water.
It isn’t an illegal act, what James and others are doing is assuming. Let me break down the word assume for you, when you ass\\u\\me, you make an ass out of u and me.
There are so many Bud Buds employed in the civil service,is it not a reason to wonder why they function the way they do?
Where else in the world do you find a Government that guarantees employment to all its unproductive citizens. It only happens in the Cayman Islands.
Salary Cut
There have been conflicting views about the claim made by the person who wrote this. Lets try and sort it out.
He/she wrote: “I have a friend in the US who is making 20 thousand dollars more than me, with the same training and education – No wait with the pay cut it will be closer to 30,000 more.”
Please tell me if and where I go wrong.
I assume this anonymous person (Person A or PA) is talking about annual salary. That is an assumption and may therefore be incorrect. It could I suppose be income per month but that seems unlikely.
Therefore before the pay cut let’s assume that Person A is earning $50 000 a year. The American friend (Person B or PB) is therefore earning $70 000 a year.
If PA gets a 2% pay cut then the salary gap will be increased to $21 000 a year as 2% of $50 000 is $1000. If you can’t see why, stop reading now. It will hurt your brain to read more.
Therefore for the salary cut to have the impact that PA anticipates, he or she must be earning a lot more than $50 000 pa.
How much?
Lets call PA’s salary S
So after the pay cut S – S/100 x 2 = PA’s new salary which is therefore 0.98 of his/her original salary
Using a little bit of level CXE algebra and you can work out that:
S + 20 000 – 0.98S = 30 000
S – 0.98S = 10 000
0.02S = 10 000
S = 500 000
This guy has the highest paid job in the Civil Service. He on $500 000 a year and he earns even more than I do.
In further thought, to my other post: how you dare you Mr. portfolio manager of some institutional investor think your job more important than the garbage man who picks up your crap and stop the rodents from carrying you out of your house, or the teacher who teaches your kids? What, you use a PC and look at the markets and make good investment decsions for some foreign investor who makes a "killing" return on your hedging! Mainwhile, our government collects nothing from that "killing" save your work permit fee while you go to the irish pub or coconut joe’s for your fish and chips or an ale!
Unna dont talk rubbish in my ears about the role or value of our public servants. Keep unna heads up and I say congrats to that association you all got there that is not rolling over and playing dead and giving in under the pressure. The elected government should be ashamed of themselves for making and feeding the evil mindset out there that the civil servants should be on hand and knee and expected to work for peanuts. Stop using them for scapegoats. Stop it now. Thank them for their scarifices and hard work and for not taking brides to pass work permits or to not prosecute a particular case (our legal department for example). I say thank you for the integrity and good service you guys provide. I for one am pleased and very grateful.
back to my brazillian brew…smell ya…what an aroma…where my sugar is I wonder?
Johnny shows his racism in this one! "while you go to theirish pub or coconut joe’s for your fish and chips or an ale!" I suppose your comment is true, these expats do not pay stamp duty, import duty, vehicle licensing or help employ other people on the island. Biggotted and stupid?
"how you dare you Mr. portfolio manager of some institutional investor think your job more important than the garbage man who picks up your crap and stop the rodents from carrying you out of your house, or the teacher who teaches your kids?" This is not about importance. It is about value in the labor market. Probably only a fraction of the population can be an investment manager or a corporate lawyer, and the good ones make their clients a great deal of money – scarcity plus returns = high pay. Wages are driven by this rather than any concept of moral or societal value.
Unfortunately levelling wages by reference to perceived social value, worthy in theory, tends to be harmful for the economy as it discincentivises those that are real drivers for economic growth.
But from your posts economic points will not be able to overcome the nasty bigotry underlying what you say.
PS: Thanks for reminding me I have not gone to an Irish pub for Sunday lunch for a while, I think I’ll pop off there now. Mmm Yorkshire Pudding . . .
I was waiting for you to answer this ya one. It burn ya good nah? Like my grandmother used to say – serve you right…had no business meddling in local government issues.
There you go am racist now, because I have shown you all your actions. Hedge all day or do some corporate contract (our lawyers) and then off to the pubs. I merely wanted to point out (in tandem with my prior post) that we (caymanians) know what time it is. I have taken the time to expose in simple terms the totality of your jobs – PC, risk, high returns…wow and no money for government. I am very aware of what makes returns relevant to jobs happen.
Enough said about that…because your post has proven my point: IT IS VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FOR ALL including our CIVIL SERVANTS to have their jobs demeaned, trivialized, discarded or otherwise. So unna stop doing it to our hard working public officers. Boy da show can burn when it’s on your foot eh?
Where my maxwell house is and some saltines
Does JC actually read the responses people post to what he says, because he did not really address the central point made above that pay is largely a function of scarcity and perceived economic value.
I sure do but obviously you did not read my response where I indicate that I am very aware of the considerations for wage/salary determination. So if you missed me saying that…then chances are you have missed my point for using those comparisons to start with
Sorry Johnny but whatever point you made in your original posting is lost on me. Seeing as all your responses consist of schoolyard name calling, racism and other such foolishness the casual reader cannot give your rantings any credibility.
You do not want me to resort to schoolyard name calling. And I would not expect an expat to get it…the rantings, as you have called it, was meant for Caymanians; given the amount of positive feedback I would say it was clear.
But am fairly decent, I believe so I will try and help one more time. My second posting above (the one you chose to comment on) is a follow-on or further thought/elobration of the first posting (below). So if you read the first posting and then the second posting, you will see that I clearly undesrtand wage determination.
I will have to come in on the Civil Servant side again. It is so easy to bash public servants eh? I am sure many of you in the private sector hoped government could have made up their deficit budget by slashing and destroying civil servants pay; that way, you would not have to contribute nothing from your pay for the many services you are demanding for free! Not by a long shot darlin. While a pay cut of 2% seems small, it can be big for some and in these times the very difference needed to cover everything. How dare any of you presume you know what that 2% means to any public worker. That aside, a pay cut of .01% is still a pay cut.
The despectful people on here who pass civil servants as "seat warmers" or idle, lazy or the discards/rejects of the private sector is self-centered and plain wrong. It is not easy to enter the service. Chances are many of you who say such things may wish or applied to be in the service and was rejected because the standards are high. Usually most jobs are interviewed by a panel of at least three persons. As I understand it, the department head, someone from the personnel department and someone from public service commission. This ensures fairness and integrity of the process in my view but I believe is meant (in the case of public service commission representative) to ensure the person is of high standings and good character and would be able to work within the service. So given this process, many in the private sector could not make the grade.
then there are those who believe their jobs in the private sector are more important. Let us dig a lil deeper here. The private sector jobs are made up of predominately: hair salons, bars, restaurants (wendys, KFC, etc), hotels, condos – service jobs. Then we have our journalists, the banks and oh yeah our accounting firms – Financial Services. Okay you want me to mention the dump truck drivers, grocery stores, dive operators, golf cart attendants and we can’t forget our telephone, and utility providers. Now, you going to compare those jobs against, health service providers, Police, fire, customs, bordor control, pilots for MRCU, auditors, teachers, court marshalls, judges, etc etc. etc? Besides the admin staff (not meaning to degrade them), nearly all of the public sector jobs reuire technical, skilled, specialized training and an education. Add the level of responsible our public officers carry with these posts (a test many in the private sector could stand up to) and we begin to get the tremendous pressure that our public servants work under. Never mind, potential for political victimization and the gag order the serve under that I believe infringes on their basic human right for free speech!
Now I could go on doing that useless process of comparison above but like you, I fould it silly, trival and obviously void of the type of substance that I like to "muck-up" in; but, I believe it was necessary for some of the thankless, heartless, thoughtless and self-centered persons speaking evil of thecivil SERVANTS.
I said it before, the civil servants are being used as a scapegoat and an easy football by many of you in the private sector. Civil servants are not responsible for, as one person suggested on here (obviously they are ignorant to the compilation of the budgets), our 400M dollar budgets. They account for between 40 – 50% of that figure (in salaries & benefits) as I understand it. Which is comparable to nearly all, I assume, of every company or business on island and worldwide! The balance some 250M is made of this present government plans (New port, roads, schools etc).
I know too many Civil Servants, who are hard working, dedicated and provide an honest and yes NOT corrupt service to all of us. So unna should be ashamed to be wishing evil on their jobs and earnings. How dare you!
There is one final point I wish to make: I do hope there are no expats especially from our financial services indusrty commenting on here. If you are an expat, you get away with plenty as it is. You have some to a country that, besides a work permit fee (which your employer should be paying) allows you to make your income (small or big) tax free and am sure you relish this. Then you drive on roads that you dont pay any tolls on and the list could go on. Apart from that glaring positive, you should stay out of local budget and government issues. Unna too out of order.
Where my brazillian roasts are…these people got me heated and I need something strong.
Hear, hear! I think you deserve some of the best Jablum! It’s about time someone stuck up for all the people who chose a career dedicated to public service rather than private gain.
Johnny, I am expat. From the financial services industry. I have posted comments on this issue. Since in all probability you do not pay any more taxes than I do , in fact given the chip on your shoulder I think it is fair to assume you contribute much less to the government coffers than I do. So I am going to comment away. Sorry about exercising free speech in the country I live in. I hope you don’t choke on your coffee and cake.
Most local civil servants receive a salary lower than ex-pats employed in the same capacity and do not rate a housing or transportation allowance. If these were cut out it would be a huge savings for govenrment also. Most civil servants work very hard for there salaries and a majority of them make far less than what the general public "assume" they do. And yes, I am a civil servant and agree some salaries may be over the top but most of us are barely getting by and not an extravagant lifestyle either. Just normal , everday bills.
Well your assumption relevant to what I pay is just that an assumption. Without our dues on the table it is hard to tell. But seeing, by your own admission, you are an expat, and I am a Caymanian adult, the likelyhood of my time here being longer than you is a given; using our expenditure taxation system, I would have shopped at fosters, kirks or hurleys more than you have, paid more utility bills, bought more gas for my carS, ate at more restaurants etc. etc etc. So am one up one you there bro.
Oh and you missed my point on the no commenting. If I went to WORK in France, the likelyhood of me getting involved with local government issues would be slim – very slim. But ya see, that is our problem now in our country, we have made our guess-workers, especially you all from the financial services industry feel like we owe you something for your hedging services. Well, you johnny-come-lately (no pun to myself ha ha), Mr. Bush and the government may feel they have to, but do not expect that here my friend and not from me. You guys must stay in unna place. Nobody wants to deny any rights to unna, but unna too out of order (to use jamaican slang).
No choking here….my brazillian brew went down nicely.
If you came to WORK in the UK (your emphasis) you would have the right to speak your views and vote in national and local elections. And as a British citizen living in a British territory then I will say what needs to be said as it is the UK that would be left footing the bill if this territory was mismanaged any more. If unna don’t like it – tough.
I am a british OVERSEAS TERRITORITY citizen. Again you missed my point. Having the right to (which I already said no one wants to deny you that) is one thing and staying out of issues you have no right in is another. What rubbish – British Government footing our bills!?? What planet you say you from? The Cayman Islands has never asked the british government for anyhting…even from our turtlr and rope days and if I know our people will never to so either. That said, enjoy your little brag now ya here because there is a moment afoot, in the hearts at the least, to rid ourselves of that connection and take our destiny in our own hands. Yeah and dont even come sharing our wishing your gloom with that thinking that says: we are where we are because we are british. If that makes you feel better – you believe it because guess what I won’t!! Hello…what what…you shocked to find a Caymanian who not afraid to write it?!! I done with you too okay.
Even the whiff of "taking our destiny in our own hands" would close down 80% of the financial services industry overnight and with it all the jobs linked to it. So if you want 30% unemployment and the crime rates of Nassau and Kingston, go ahead, take that step. You don’t miss the water until the well runs dry.
And what sort of immature nonsense is a line like "I done with you too okay". Have you been stealing lines fromAli G?
You would like to think that it would, but we smarter than that and would prepare to. I guess independent switzerland is suffering? So that scare tactic is hogwash! Besides, we will not have to close it down by going it alone; the serrogate mother is trying to do it on her own. However, check this out, we are prepared to function without that Industry…unemployment and all. Jamaica and Nassua has had their challenges but greed was their downfall. As a people we recognize from whom our blessings come and we will be just fine.
Sorry if it came accross immature. It was meant to be direct…interpreted: I really do not care to carry this on. You would like to believe I was stealing something from Ali G…so british, believe they are the author of everything. No it was just a johnnycake blunt response.
Thanks for the engage. Top of the day to you. cheers mate.
You have caused me to look for my Indian beans…..
What an incredible show of ignorance and illiteracy. Are you really comparing Cayman to Switzerland? No, surely not. So what is the big secret replacement industry for an isolated group of islands with a poorly educated population (see your post for evidence)? It is the foolishness of people like yourself which puts the entire future of Cayman at risk.
And it is the "know it alls" of people like yourself that has got us this mess to start with. We were fine without the likes of people like you. No am not illiterate; but, I know you would like me to be. Your snobbish attempt to belittle me will not alter a thing and instead speaks more about you. Clearly you are bothered by my opinions and views on the matter and as mentioned earlier good!!
You would like to turn the tables but guess what: I see you for who you are. If you believe from my post that I was suggesting Cayman is similiar to Switzerland in any other way than our common ground of OFS, then you are more gullible than I give you credit for. I have been to switzerland, twice in fact. Poor you, I do pity you, so I will make it more clearer for you. The reference to switzerland and I could have used Bermuda (which is a little more constitutionally advanced than we are), was to indicate that our success, going forward as a OFS, is hindged on much more than our noose to mother england. You believe this but I don’t. If it is, then it has more to do with stability than england itself, hense our competitive stance with them. So, to mitigate that flight risk, any move to rid ourselves of that noose and free our soles would be made with due consideration for all risk. This my reference to being prepared. However, I go on to suggest (and I know this is the part that buns your bunky up) that if we loose some because of the convictions of the heart…then so be it. Sometimes there is a price.
Lastly, your degraded and cheap shot reference to us being poorly educated is taken with a grain of salt. Again, you would like us to believe we are but we and certainly not me, dont have to prove ca-ca to you. Good riddance.
In the last two years I spent about $100,000 in stamp duty for my home and mortgage (I paid more on stamp duty as I am an ex-pat). I think my work permit costs $19,000 (I might be wrong on that one). I pay thesame car licence fee as you do. I spend more than most, so I will pay more on customs duties than most people here. My guess is that I have directly contributed about $200,000 or so in to the government in taxes in the last 18 months.
How much have you put in Mr. Cake? You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
This lil perswon did not go there though!!?? You going to ask me how much I have paid. Man lookya…As a 7 generation Caymanian I would say we (my family and I) would have paid substancially in blood, sweat and tears. So don’t come with ya numbers thing to me. In my country…I can have whatever I want. My opinion is mine and I stand by it.
How much did you pay in the last 18 months then? Waffle about your childhood and 10 cents duty paid by your mother on a can of baked beans when you were 6 is not really helpful today for the Cayman budget.
Always wonder does the view of a 7th generation Caymanian count for more than the view of a 6th generation Caymanian. How many generations does one need to prove to call oneself a "trueblood" on Rooster FM? It does all have a certain Harry Potter feel to it.
you put in 200,000, but how many millions have you taken out you dumb expat!
Get these expats out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are right on some things, Johnny. The civil service is indeed commendably free from corruption and should be commended for that. But, alas, there ARE seatwarmers and poor performers. As a civil servant I see them very clearly! The only thing I can say, though, is they must exist in the private sector too, wouldn’t you think?
You beeter believe it…Example: I waited for fifteen minutes for a server at a restaurant a few months back…(all expat workers just so we clear who they were) of course I told the manager to not expect me back for a while.
First of I think this should have been applied using a curve or on different levels rather than a flat percent. Take more from the ones who can afford more. With this whole talk of government pay cuts I know it has been asked quite a few times but whatever happened to the pay cuts for the MLA’s??
Secondly I believe the departments within government really need to look at themselves and start trimming some fat. Some departments have too many staff and half of the staff end up doing nothing all day. I know it wouldn’t help the unemployment rate but we need to stop expecting the government to spoon feed us everything. Just because they are our government doesn’t mean that they have to give you a job and pay you just because you’re caymanian and can’t be bothered going out and getting a job..
CNS: don’t forget to vote in the CNS online polls
SIR TURTLE (to leaders of government):
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL ~
even if its 2%
The British used to employ Indians and Chinese two for one, three for one, four for one depending on their level of productivity.
That looks like something the Government could try with the present bunch of seat warmers.
As a civil servant, I take great umbrage to the audacity of the civil service association representing the entire service WITHOUT consultation. Before cutting our salaries, there isso much that can and should be done to ease up the financial burden. For example:
1- Get rid of HOD’s that have no clue and show blatant favoritism to his/her chosen few staff.
2- IMMEDIATELY forbid civil servants from using government cars to pick up kids froim school, go to the grocery store or conduct their own personal business by using govt cars. By using the govt cars for personal use,could this not be considered theft as it relates to the gas consumed.
3- IMMEDIATELY increase govt fees; eg passports, stamp duty, garbage fees, promissary note fees etc.,
4-Without delay get rid of ALL non-essential staff- those who are not performing and those who cannot handle the job
5-Open ALL govt offices for 3 hours on a Saturday so that the usage of the staff are increased and properly utilised.
I am not happy with this, and wonder if the powers that be are going to ask CUC, Fosters,Kirks, Hurleys, Lime, Digicel and the list could go on to reduce their cost by 2%. I dare say NO!!!
For those civil servants who do not agree with this, I say do a massive sick out day.
When you here the moans from the civil servants on CNS it just makes the cut seem so much of a better idea – overpaid and unable to do basic maths seems to be the basic gist of most of their posts. 2%? Make it 5%
It is HEAR not here the moans. Maybe you should get a 10% cut for such poor literacy.
I am confused here or CNS reported it incorrectly but how exactly does the civil servant benefit from "in return for the cut, four days of unpaidleave."
They are already taking 2% from their salary and then what? Telling them they can take 4 days UNPAID? Would this UNPAID 4 days not also then reduce their already cut salary?
CNS: The government release sent out yesterday said unpaid leave. However, GIS sent out a correction earlier today and I have now made the corresponding changes to this article – it is paid leave.
Does that not prove they are overstaffed?
4 days paid leave for 2% of salary? Excellent deal! I would be happyfor the opportunity to an extra 4 days for pittance from my salary. This just means that the public will have to wait a little longer for services from government departments since employees will be entitled to extra holidays – more shortage of staff ha ha!
4. The tradition of the topping out ceremony marks an important milestone in the construction of a building bringing together all the parties involved. Its ancient origins are uncertain but probably derive from a belief that evil spirits entered a building during construction. The ceremony was a means of driving them out.
To me Either. The group of cronies that you talk about is the Cayman Islands Civil Service Association (CICSA) and membership is open to all civil servants. If you are a civil servant then your ignorance of this organisation is just amazing to say the least. Why dont you sign up and pay the small annual fee or are you too cheap to do that and want everything for free. CICSA has had numerous meetings to address this matter so if you have no knowledge of what Mr. Watler and his "cronies" as you call them are doing then you have noone to blame but yourself for not attending those meetings which have been advertised over the government intranet and have been open to ALL civil servants not just members of CICSA
I think what people are trying to say is this, while his views may represent the views of some, it is not the views of all, and i dare say not even the majority.
Until you can find a mechanism to get the views of at least 1,750 civil servants (which is about half of the employees), I am will also contend that he does not speak on behalf of the entire service.
The Government could do a much better job at getting the views of its employees via either sending surveys to each department or having an intranet polling.
I believe that sampling would better represent the views of the Civil Service than some townhall meeting called by CICSA.
It is my understanding that Mr Watler and executive of CISCA have not accepted or agreed to anything. What is happening is the highandedness of the government, as was the case with the talk of the pension holiday (if you all remember that!). As usual those idiots engage their mouths before their brains and end up embarrasing themselves. I also understand that CISCA will meet this week, after seeking legal advice, to inform the civil service of what has been suggested.
Many of you on here bashing civil servants out of ignorance need to first educate yourselves as to the workings of the civil service. And, no, I am not a civil servant but i have many good, hardworking friends and family who are.
Cayman Islands Civil Service Association (CICSA) and membership is open to all civil servants —- Why dont you sign up and pay the small annual fee or are you too cheap to do that and want everything for free.
So this is a Union!
Look what the United Auto Workers union had to endure. Maybe some concessions are a good idea, before it all falls apart!
Fundamentally at least 30% must be cut – we ought not to have a Government budget that requires more than $400 million.
Rationale as follows: 35,000 people working for on average $35,000 per year is $1,225,000,000. Assume that everyone paid a third of their income in a flat income tax – that gives $408,000,000 in revenue. A 33% percent flat income tax would be a lot in any country. Since we relysubstantially on private medicine, private education, private pensions and have no airforce or navy or interstate highways ought we not be able to survive on that? The US, I understand, can balance its budget with the equivalent of a less than 20% flat tax.
And no, I am not proposing income tax – only the analogy of the amount Government should be able to live on. Right now Government is requiring 50% more than the equivalent of a 33% flat tax – and is therefore using the equivalent of 50% of all income generated here. That is, simply, madness. It must shrink for Cayman to survive long term.
I’m still waiting for the politicians (or do they also fall under the category ‘civil servants’ and therefore are taking this same paycut?) to take a paycut!!!!
If they arent why aren’t they? why aren’t we DEMANDING that they take one? and a cut inall pension contributions/health insurance?? If they are not they should be shamed and named in the local media with a listing of their salaries and ‘other’ sources of income..
Is the rumour true that all former politicians/members of the LA etc still get either a salary or pension/health insurance?
I love my country and am willing to make sacrifices the question is: do they?
CNS: Vote in the online poll Should MLAs take a pay cut?
wow! $60.00 pay cut for a $3000 salary. Is this a joke or what? What about all the wasted manpower that is evident in the public’s eye each day? Pay cuts should start at $200.00
By reading some of these comments.
All of you should be thankful you still have a JOB!!!!!
What is2% short off your pay?!?!?!?!?!?! NOTHING.
I’m working in the private sector and had to take of $720 a MONTH, ($8,640.00 PA) CUT, it’s hard but I’m thankful I still have a JOB to take care of my KIDS.
I think Mr. Bush did a good job by doing this instead of LAYING OFF people. Then in the coming term you would here him being baggered for this and then voted out again for doing what’s best.
For People who work $3000 and up, I think this decision is more than fair….You all complain too much….
Remember people he is trying his best to do what’s right for his people. At the end you all will remember and say ok I understand why he did this or that.
Just stop being POLITICAL, cause Politics isn’t solving the financial straint that Gov is in at the moment.
Part of the solution must be to seek to reduce the cost of Government. In my opinion this must include civil servants making contributions to penions and insurance.
Free medical is not free – lets start to pay for the services we use.
Free education is not free – a long term solutions should also include parents making a contribution (perhaps based on means) to their childrens education. If one can afford to pay $50 or $100 per child per month then that is what should be paid.
Government will have the largest burden still – but there will be a two fold benefit: (a) There will be increased money coming in to help fund education; and (b) parents may pay more attention to how well their kids are doing in school if they are forking out money to pay for it. Sometimes we lose sight of the value of things that are free.
It should also include the civil service seeking to be as efficient as possible. And finally it should include the ability for civil servants to earn a salary increase or bonus every year depending on performance – personal performance and financial performance. Civil servants who work hard and do a good job should be rewarded.
On the revenue side I believe that the UK are right – we need to have some form of sustainable reliable income base. Discussion of a basic minimal property tax, or whatever you want to call it, on developed property above a certain $ threshold is a discussion that we shoud have. If we continue to sell our birthright we need to have something in return beyond a one time 7.5% tax. If we continue to develop a limited amount of physical property, driving upthe cost of home ownership for Caymanians then there must be some return to help Government balance the scales with affordable housing for those in need. This is a conversation we must be willing to have and not just shut the door out of fear.
We need solutions for the long term – not short term fixes that are stop gaps till the next time there is a crises.
And lets not fool ourselves into believing that selling Government ‘assets’ is the panacea for all the woes – lets see what happens if we are able to privatise garbage collection. Lets see what the cost will be to the public then.
Government is not a business – but it needs to try to operate within it’s means whilst also paying attention to the social needs of the country and it’s citizens.
Why you complaining about 2%. With having to take unpaid vacation and having to contribute half towards medical my private sector salary has dropped 5%.
If a 2% salary decrease is going to bring you to financial ruin then you were living beyond your means anyway. Your salary decrease would not be that much more than the excess on an insurance claim or a new water heater and fridge, for example. What would have happened if you had incurred one of these unexpected expenses?
People around the world have had to learn how to live within their means and the same is happening here. The only difference is that has taken longer for the impacts of the world recession to hit Cayman.
My saving goals have still been met, I just what my discretionary spending.
Is it legal or not? our Government wasn’t the first to think of it or do it http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jan/30/1n30furlough235623-state-worker-furloughs-ruled-le/?uniontrib and i’m sure we won’t be the last.
From what I heard, prior cases have gone as far as to the Privy Council and they’ve ruled in favor of the Government
It’s not a salary cut, if you make 4,000 per month now, your pay slip will still show you making 4,000 per month but there will be a deduction element for 80 dollars which will cease in June 2010.
The 80 dollars covers the additional 4 days off you’ll get between now and June.
Simply put, the Government could have imposed a 2% payroll tax and gave you nothing in return, as it is, you get deducted 2% for 9 months and you get 4 days more leave and that is the extent of the damage.
Come July 1st, 2010, your salary deductions cease and your pay continues unchanged from where it was before.
Ok, now that hte civil service is going to give up 2% of their salary to the government’s debt why don’t all of you in the private sector do the same? Rather than getting here basing civil servants you would be good for you to follow their lead and give your 2% for love of country too. Or, are you all just sitting there expecting the civil service to give and be penalised whilst you guys sit back and continue to reap your benefits? Until you can show tangible evidence of your contributions stop criticising the civil service and others.
Because our salaries are not a burden on the public purse.
Its all well and good for the Govt to want to cut salaries but is it leagal. Every employee for the Govt has a contract, if Govt cut salaries they will be in breach of their contract. Will this money be paid back to the employees. Also what about consultants to the Govt, will they be cut as well. I think that cutting consultants who are not necessary will save alot of money.
There was a letter in Fridays compass which appeared to be well researched. It quoted Govt statistics and suggested that between 2005 and 2008 (3 short years) the number of civil servants rose by 50%.
This is absolutely astounding !!!
Does anyone know what happened or what caused this?
Anon Sat at 16:04.
I doubt if the rise in civil servants is really 50%. I think we’ve got a bit of "National Enquirer Angelina’s baby is an alien" going on there.
BUT-consider this. A year or so ago, in Finance Committee, Franz Manderson said he would need 30 more Immigration Officers to implement the new Immigration Law. No Problem. Kernohan (and every other Head Cop since Adam walked on earth) said he needed more cops and higher wages. No problem (no higher wages but increases to their housing allowance which is pensionable-this pissed off the other "essential services" mightily). Then there was the helicopter-if it comes, that will need 5 or 6 more civil servants. Then of course we need all the new schools to take care of the rising school population (caused by the status gold rush if you are anti-UDP)-that takes a shitload of teachers. No problem. What else can we do? The Law says they must be in schools.
I could go on-nurses and doctors at the hospital for example. They’re not civil servants but they are paid by Government to provide services-what the hell does it matter if they are Public Servants or Civil Servants-we pay them!!!!!
James Watler and some of his accountability-afraid cronies-especially those in finance who are too lazy or incompetent or both to provide proper accounting figures to government – would have us believe it is all caused by the Public Management and Finance Law and civil service reform in general.They hate that because-dammit- it tries to hold them accountable for what they do (or don’t do). Ignore them. That’s not the problem. The problem is successive governments requiring the civil service to provide more and more services to the country. Example: Chuckie wanted a Fire Station in Bodden Town (requiring extra firemen of course). Question: How many fires do the existing firemen in George Town have to deal with annually? Question: How many would the Bodden Town firemen have to deal with?
The answer, my friend, is we have the cleanest shiniest fire engines in the world because these full time employed civil servants have little or nothing to do but polish their engines and run pretend exercises. Nothing wrong with that if we want such a fire service, but don’t let everyone bitch about the cost of the civil service.
furlough
just call it what it is….. a four day furlough….
Amen, finally, someone gets it!!!!!
After all this hoopla about pulling kids from private schools and the world is ending for a 2% cut, did anyone stop do do the calculation? based on the basic salary and wage bill in the budget divided by approximately 3,500 civil servants, the average salary per civil servant is about $50,000 per year.
now, if your salary is 50,000 per year, and itis being cut by 2% for 9 months, then the amount by which your salary is being reduced equates to $750 for the whole year (50,000 x .75 x .02) or, on average $62.50 per month (750 divide by 12).
Now if you have a school that you’re sending your child to for only $62.50 per month, then please post the name as i’d like to get mine enrolled there too.
Nothwithstanding the $62.50 dollar per month reduction, the Government is now saying, in return for this 2 percent deduction from your salary, you now have an extra 4 days of vacation this year (and yes those will be paid vacation), what you do with those 4 days is your business and when you take them is your business.
Just wish people would get all the facts, cool down a bit and think rationally before they go flying off the handle. Are you such poor financial managers that with a $50,000 salary you cannot make a $750 adjustment without signficantly disrupting your lives, come on people, get real.
Exactly Sat 10:28!!
A more pertinent issue is what on earth use is a cut of just 2% going to be on our dire economic position?
that is news to me about the average making $50,000.00 per year, cuz most people in the civil service that i know make less than that. I dont know where u getting your caculations from but you better hit the drawing board again…
oh and btw 675 could pay one month’s light bill for me, which is a third of my monthly salary. It is totally amazing how the private sector thinks that cs make so much lol maybe you should come work for them then
If 675.00 represent a third of your monthly salary, then your monthly salary is $2,027.00 (675.00 divide by .333), that puts you below the $3,000 per month threshold and therefore you are not subject to the pay deduction. Now be quiet!!!!
Typical – read it a little closer – he took the 9 month cut and divided it into a year’s worth of time to get a per annum figure.
This half cocked response only makes those complaining look about as efficient as a Public Works Road Crew…
That’s why it’s called an aaaaverage, i.e some make more and some make less, but this is about the midpoint based on the numbers. Mannn, its people like you that make it hard to defend against civil service bashings, you lack basic common sense.
I agree. People need to stop complaining if they do not really know or understand the facts. It’s not a BIG DEAL if you do the math. All this means is that people who make over $3,000/mth may have to cut back on eating out ONE or TWO times per month for 9 months. It’s that small way to help out if you really think about it.
People who make under $3,000 per month do not have to worry, because every dollar counts for them because of the cost of living. And similarly, classroom teachers are not affected because although some may make over $3,000 per month, they often have to pay out of pocket for classroom accessories –believe it or not. I know because I have a lot of friends and family who are teachers.
Mr. James Watler and Mr. Suckoo are doing a great job. They have a challenging role and not everyone will be happy. But the government is in serious financial trouble and everyone has to join together and help out a little. Civil servants better be happy the government didn’t decide to cut civil servants salaries because that would have caused pensions to be affected. Mr. Watler told the television station if it weren’t done this way civil servants pensions would take a hit too.
Are the MLAs taking a pay cut as well? Civil servant’s pensions are paid by government monthly at 12% . However MLA’s pensions are paid at over 100% !!! I think the politicians should set an example and cut MLA’s pay by 25% and Minster’s by by 40% before asking the civil servants.
Good jod Mr Premier
Next in the Agenda please….
Ahhhh… here we go again with the expat bashing….. I guess this poster (10:17) knows all of the 900 (appox) expats on contracts… and also knows that all of them are ‘seat warmers’. And i guess he/she also knows that all 900 have bashed caymanians.
Its so sad when such generalisations are made in such a negative way.
Why are Teachers Exempt?
Why in the hell are teachers exempt? Don’t all civil servants work at least five days per week? Could this exemption be because Mr. Watler works in Education?
Well CICSA could not make some sort of compromise with the Pension (and nobody thought about cutting back on CINICO) so the Portfolio of Civil Service has betrayed their workforce by suggesting an illegal pay cut.
Oh no Cayman please no more lawsuits!
To all you Civil Servants with Contracts, do something useful with it like making a paper airplane, because if a legally binding contract does not protect your benefits than that sets a precedence for Government to do whatever they want to you in the future!
Make Civil Servants pay for one-half of their pension and CINICO – millions and millions saved.
Sign me,
Too Many Chiefs (Chief Secretary and Chief Officers) and not enough Indians (the people who actually do the day to day work).
You ask why teachers are exempt? Have you stopped to think about a 4 day school week? I am sure teachers would do with an additional day of rest, but they are too concerned about their students that they themselves would freely give of those very same days to help them. Afterall, teachers are always going above and beyond normal working hours to help their students learn without overtime pay; and that has been for decades. Don’t think that this exemption from a salary cut is a favour to teachers; it is simply a recognition of the value of education and the impact it would have on students if precious time was cut. It is pretty clear that you are among the many who passed through the hands of many teachers and is still yet to recognise the invaluable service they provide. And yes, I know you will say that they are being paid for it; but I can attest to the fact that the service, dedication and love that teachers portray for their students stretch beyond an 8 hour day and are priceless. Please apologise to your teachers!
The civil service is overstaffed with Caymanians? Not the dept. I work in. Look at our schools – most of the teachers are non-Caymanian – our police force – the hospital….the NRA. To say that the the civil service is overstaffed with Caymanians is incorrect. There might be a higher representation of Caymanians, but as with most places the majority of workers are from elsewhere.
As a civil servant this pay cut with hurt my family significantly. There go the house plans….and preschool. As to saying that we are overpaid – right now I make less than most of my friends/family who work in the private sector – and I have advanced degrees. I have a friend in the US who is making 20 thousand dollars more than me, with the same training and education – No wait with the pay cut it will be closer to 30,000 more. Yes, I know they have taxes and the exchange rate, but they also have a less expensive cost of living.
When I look at many of the expat civil servants here, this will not hurt them as much. Many don’t have children, or the children are adults. They come here either because the exchange rate is favorable and they can get more with the money at home (building houses/supporting their familiy’s education) or because they like the sunny, drinking/partying lifestyle.
Your Caymanians – who have children to school, a family to support, and a to mortgage to pay are the ones who will truly struggle.
Hmmm, advanced degrees eh? if a 2% cut equates to a $10,000.00 dollar loss for you, then it suggests your original salary was in the order of $500,000.00 per year for your benefit the math is (500,000.00 x .02 = 10,000).
In such a case, I really struggle to see how you will ever be able to survive on the 490,000.00 per annum you have left.
In that case you says the civil service aren’t overpaid $500,000 a year, so the 2% decrease will drop your monthly salary from $41,600 to $40,833, that is a hardship.
I guess this civil servant is trained in the art of Bureaucratic Bungling.
I think this might be the same one whom I tried to pay a substantial amount of money to yesterday but had to leave because they refused to accept the money.
that’s exactly the first thing that jumped out at me as well when i first read the commentary. but i doubt that he/she understood your point, because if you note, his/her main fixation is on those darn millionaire expats (civil servants included) who milk these islands dry. so much for the advanced degree. an a$$/donkey is still an a$$/donkey even after 20 years of tertiary education…
You are such an idiot. The person took his annual salary to come up to $10k. Some people don’t have basic common sense.
If a 2% pay cut means that your friend in the States is going to be getting an extra $10 000 a year more than you on top of the $20 000 extra he or she is a;ready getting, it means that your current salary is somewhere in the region of $500 000 pa. Were any of your, ‘advanced degrees’ maths based by any chance?
No, it was being spread around the dept. that it was 4 unpaid days/month – which would have been about 800.00 bucks (give or take). The article really didn’t clarify matters as to whether it was monthly or yearly…I know many businesses in the private sector that have stopped employees working 1 day a week, and I thought that was the case.
If it had been 4/days per month, 800.00/month, that would have been closer to the 10,000 US to which I was referring. Luckily it has been clarified that it is 4 days/year and they are paid. I am no longer worried – but I am a little confused….what difference will this make to the government finances, as it is such a miniscule amount ?? I will willingly give up the 2% and the days of leave… Nice sarcastic touch at the end though : )
Maybe it is terrible accounting like this from our civil servants that got us into this mess. If a short term 2% cut is critical to your home buying plans then you can’t afford the house in the first place. It was people buying homes they could not afford that was the start of the crash worldwide. But given that property prices have dropped by about 30% across Cayman in recent years, then you can afford property much more easily now on 98% of 70% than you could before on 100% of 100%.
But then this 2% was apparently going to pay for your mortgage and pre-school fees. Are you on $1m a year? (As has been pointed out already your email implies that 2% of your income is $10,000 so you must be on $500k a year).
Stop making things up and scaremongering. It is BS like this which lead me to support the reduction in civil service pay.
And blatantly playing the racist card at the end was a disgrace. The government would be better off without civil servants who post things like this.
What are the sacrifices those high flying, high earning lawyers and those medical doctors and other professionals who cream out these islands going to make at this time. They make and move out millions and millions of dollars from this country. Civil servants make a huge sacrifice to maintain this country with good governance (of course, politicians at every turn try to corrupt the system). It is totally totally unfair if only the poor civil servants alone are going to carry the burden. Once we are through with current troubles, above-mentioned culprits will start creaming out this country again.
Tough Times Require Tough Measures.
I believe a 2% reduction for persons earning $3000 > is reasonable considering if comes with an incentive.
Cutting salaries or taking any other controversial measures must be coupled with motivating an employee to perform at their best. The notions of cutting salaries or reducing employees are bound to make employees fearful, nervous or even depressed. Our civil servants should not feel threatened as a result of a salary reduction but instead they should be encouraged to have hope and to have confidence in our future. The despair that sets in at times like these can make an unpleasant situation worse. Therefore, we cannot afford to further depress our civil servants during such difficult times.
Any individual who attempts to negatively paint the ambitions of civil servants with a broad brush is unfortunately being unjust to many hard working persons within the service. The majority of our civil servants are hard working and in several instances they are underpaid.
My concern is the approach the government is taking with the financial issues. There are numerous programs that are still being done that could have been put on hold. What would have made a lot more sense is for each ministry to review the programs and services and the associated costs , rank them and then put on hold the lowest ranking programs and services. This would provide real savings with the least negative impact on people and essential services.
However with this confused approach , first a12% cut on pensions , that didnt fly, now how is a 2% salary cut going to fix the problem . I cannot believe that all the supposedly intelligent and ‘qualified’ people in Budget Management and the Portfolio of Finance cannot get their act together and approach the problem strategically.
Well, well, isn’t it good to have civil servants to bash?! Some of you people are so darned pathetic. I’m not a civil servant, by the way but my sister is one and she works extremely hard and long hours every work day for her small salary, not because she is forced to but because she is dedicated and loyal. Out of her small salary she pays $725.00 every month to provide adequate insurance coverage for her and her family. I am aware that there are many other civil servants who do the same because they know that Cinico is totally useless. So don’t even suggest that they pay for half of that. What government should do is identify individuals with private insurance and contribut half of the monthly cost! forget about expensive Cinico coverage for an average family. Dont’ get me wrong, Cinico is needed for the unsurable and those who cannot afford private coverage but don’t get on here talking from assumptions.
Yes, of course, there are lazy and useless individuals in the civil service, but the same is true in some private sector corporations. Government needs to do a survey to identify the unnecessary jobs and cut them from the civil list. Once they are done with that exercise they can stop calling up department heads and demanding that they hire their friends and family too.
Sister works hard.
It sure takes a lot of energy to keep a seat warm all day.
it sure does in the private sector as well
Don’t cut salaries.
These measures work elsewhere in the "real" world:
– Civil servants pay percentage of salary to pension – government matches (doesn’t pay all).
– Civil servants pay medical (government negotiates low premiums as part of group plan).
– Stop paying for mileage.
All this hooey back and forth on both sides is just a lot of noise to camouflage the sound of all of them lining their pockets with our money.
It’s as easy to see as…
Civil Servants need to:
Take a look at the private sector now. Jobs are being lost. Consider yourself lucky to only loosing 2% not the full 100%.
Mr Watler is clueless and hopeless.
If civil servants don’t like it they can find another job. A great way to reduce the numbers of the civil service.
Its a pity some posters can’t read. The objection is to actions that "could be against the law". There’s a right way and a wrong way to do things. All the Civil Servants are asking is that things be done the right way.
Part of their service contract was for full medical and a set amount of cash per month (plus pension, of which they pay half, like everyone else, despite how some inumerates may like to count it). When you change that unilaterally you’re in breach of contract. There’s a right way and a wrong way to renegotiate contracts. Via the media isn’t it.
Additionally, its the height of ‘something’ to advertise for new Chief & assistant chief Officer level posts ($100K a year) last month and now cut salaries this week. (Though I must recognise they are off the gov.ky website now.) Either the Service is broke or its making cuts to appease people while expanding to appease another group of someones. Again, theres a right and a wrong way to do things.
It will be interesting to hear which way the Civil Service leans in their meeting; how many of them will accept a pay cut under the justifications being offered (which are that we’re kinda broke, trust us) and how many will follow "You Don’t Speak For Me" in his rousing motion to give the government their money so the government can develop PFIs with whoever comes in the door with a cheque book open. There’s a right and a wrong way to do things and a meeting of members to discuss the issue (as they say they’re going to call) seems like the right way to me.
The 2.8% that we received last, helped me qualify for my home. Now i have to look forward to losing that too. Is there anyone willing to take in a single mother with 2 kids?
Hot news!
Due to the financial crisis and associated cuts, will the public please note the following:
1) The Portfolio of the Civil Service will no longer be on the 3rd floor of the Corporate Centre but will now be on floor "2 and a bit."
2) Due to cut backs, the above department will be known in the future as, "The Portfolio of Th."
3) A 20% cutback means that the Assistant Deputy Strategic Adviser to the Deputy Financial Assistant Adviser (acting) is moving from Room 10 to Room 8.
4) New recruits for the Service coming from the UK will be forced off the plane in Nassau. This will bring about a 12% saving.
5) In a bold move that could well have international implications and ramifications, Wednesdays will no longer exist.
What a bunch of bigotry coming from a vermin.
??????
Hey, lighten up – this is even funnier than people’s attempts at calculating 2%!!
I am so glad to have proof that you read what I wrote about you before Mr Anonymous. I hope you realise that no one else will have a clue what you are talking about and will probably think you are a little deranged.
What’s your first name Mr Anonymous – Braveheart?
Thank God for anonymity. It makes heros of us all.
Roger
Roger
Rogerita.
Excuse me, but we have bills to pay just like the rest of you. I just recently received a pay raise which i worked hard for and deserved. I’ll take a pay cut once you’re willing to foot the rest of my bills. I agree that there is A LOT of Civil Servants that does not belong, but i speak on my behalf. BTW- My kids and I go to Private Docs, no Insurance, just out of my pocket. When i see you in the Supermarket again, i hope that you at least have a dollar to spare!!!!
Pro Caymanian
Ditto for this civil servant too. I also go to private doctors and pay out of own pocket. The private sector seem to think that it is us poor Caymanians that getting all the money, do us a favour and do a FOI request and you will see that the majority of us are making less that $30,000.00-$40,000.00 per annum. You will see where governments money is going. Stop trying to take the little bread that we have in our mouth, out of it we are making half what you make and you dont hear us complaining as much as you all.
Stop the civil service bashing people, and put yourselves in our shoes for once
James Watler and CICSA do not represent my views or opinion as a civil servant. Many of us in the service know that something needs/has to be done to help in this crisis situation. Personally, I think a 2% cut is a small sacrifice considering that I still have a job and in all liklihood will receive my salary at the end of the month.
So Mr. Watler and company, i’d appreciate it if you stop giving the general public the impression that you arerepresenting the views of all civil servants, when the pension thing came up, no one asked me how i felt, I personally supported it, yet people were parading around inferring that the entire service was against it.
There are over 3,500 of us in the service, you may have spoken to 1% of us, but that certainly does not qualify or authorize you to speak on behalf of the whole service.
my advice to Government, ignore CICSA, you have the means to poll the entire service and get civil servants actual opinions on these measures. many of us recognize the predicament our country is in, please don’t believe that the babblings of Mr. Suckoo and Mr. Watler is shared by all.
I am sick of all the bashings civil servants take in these forums simply because these two individuals are feeding the public with the impression that we don’t care what happens in this country or to our Government as long as we keep all our jobs, pay and benefits.
If this union isn’t checked and checked quickly, a lot of bad things is going to happen to our Government and by extension our country.
Speak for yourself my dear. I suggest rather than sign on to this web site anonymously that you keep your opinion of CICSA to yourself and identify yourself to the Chief Secretary so that you can take the pay cut and pension cut if you so wish. I am sure a number of us who are members of CICSA are 100% behind Mr. Watler and his crew who are working very diligently on our behalf. If you had attended the CICSA meetings you will have heard that Mr. Watler is only advising us of our legal rights. He made it perfectly clear that if and when the government decides a pay cut for civil servants then he would be back to us for guidance. At no time did he say that we were not to take the pay cut. He did say no to the pension suspension and if you had any sense you would realise that to agree to the pension suspension would be devastating to the entire pension plan of the civil service in the long term.
I must agree. Whatever his intentions and whatever his qualifications, Mr. Watler cannot speak for the entire civil service. I say this because he has never spoken with me, nor emailed me asking my opinion or if I would be willing to support this stand or that one. I can only assume his releases are written in a "smoke-filled room" surrounded by his cronies, who may or may not be friends of McKeeva Bush’s cronies. Is there a place to sign up to be a crony so that I can get a piece of the pie and have my opinion heard by those who supposedly "represent" me?
Its very unfortunate that the good suffers for the lazy ones, I see it all the time, they go to the place of employment, See, I didnt say work, as a lot of them is just what the other posters said, seat warmers. Yes why? why dont the civil servants not pay their own pension and insurance like the private sector do, then we will all be equal. The government pays a hefty sum for these two items, if the civil servants paid into these funds it will take a load of the government coffers. So have a little heart and do your part.
I guess I would owe you an apology then.
I would say tho rather than a pension holiday I would make government much like Private Sector whee we pay 50% of Health and Pension. This could be retroed back to January and the amount split and taken back over 4 months or however is manageable to bring both sectors in line.
This move would represent considerable savings to Governement and might mean no need for salary reduction. It should also work with the books.
After that we need look at what we can do to all of us to get revenues up. However actual collection of garbage fees. I understand plenty of those are outstanding.
Registrar of Companies do you have anything on your books that can be collected such as penalties for Annual Licenses not paid on time that can be collected?? I believe you do.
I believe there is money out there that is to be collected but Gov departments have done a not so good job of doing it.
I have to agree with some with what was said. However I think that they were right as far as not agreeing to a Pension suspension/holiday.
A 2% cut is reasonable under the circumstances and most people over $3,000 per month should be able to accomodate it – it just means cutting back somewhere in their budget.
My only disagreement is the lack of polling of the membership of the Civil Service, taking into consideration the technology available today, not contacting members is no excuse!
However, the Civil Service Assocation is necessary in this country as a voice of the Service and to discount it would be a grave mistake.
Barack Obama has clearly stated in one of his recent addresses that America owes a lot to Unions, as they have fought for the benefits and rights of the workers who otherwise would have no voice eg Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. Whether it is government or business, the rights of workers must be respected and Unions have their place. Too bad that more unions in the country do not exist to protect Caymanians from exploitation.
But then again we are a developing country, as far as the rest of the world is concerned – despite what we may want to believe, the mindset has a long way to go.
Ignorance is a sin, I swear. How would you like if your boss highhandedly reduced your salary overnight because he is broke through his extravagance but allowed many of his friends and acquantances to come over every day for a huge feast? Well, that is what civil servants feel like … thier salaries being cut by 2% while the majority in the private sector continue to reap their benefits and go without contributing to govermment’s empty coffers. Think about it. And, by the way, civil servants do pay their 6%, look at their paslips. Departmetns pay the almost useless Cinico insurance covrerage at a high rate but many civil servants pay out of pocket to the private sector because they are too afraid of the incompetent doctors at the hospital which is the only place that accepts Cinico. Government is not doing them any favours.
I want to know when the MLAs will be giving back the hugeincrease they got from PPM, (23% I think it was). I bet you wont hear of UDP scaling that back any! That is what they should look at. Meanwhile they are buying expensive hummers, Mercedes suv’s for their wives, doing expensive renovations on their homes etc, travelling lavishly. all things the rest of us would like to have and do too but we cant.
Civil Servants Advice!…
– Start paying half of the medical and pension contribution made on your behalf, like everyone else and save us $30 million…
– Cut your pay by 10% – everybody else is tighteneing their belts, so why not you? – and save us another $35 million…
– Cut the Civil Servants numbers by 15% and save us another $53 million…
All told, if you stopped acting like Self-Servants and started to become real Civil Servants with the interests of the country at heart, you could save us: $30 + $35 + $53 = $118 million and balance the budget in one operation…
So, what will it be Civil or Self-Servants?…
Nah, how about you start paying your duty on imported items instead? If you really believe its all so peachy why not send in your C/V? Here’s what ill do instead of what you suggest; ill pull both of my children out of privateschool for a savings of $1500+ per month for my family, place them instead in public school for no cost, thereby creating another financial burden for the Government and the people. I’m sure others will follow with similar opportunities for savings.
Ill help you with the math. With my 2% pay cut, the Government will save about $100 per month. The cost they pick with an additional two children in the public schools is……. Now you get back to me and tell me who wins and who loses.
Now Mr. or Ms. Uncivil Servant, please explain to a dunce like me why you would take your child out of private school if you lose ‘about $100 per month’ in paycut? I am certain that you are paying a whole lot more than $100 to keep two children in school.
I therefore deduce from that a bit of spitefulness maybe? I would humbly submit that it is civil servants such as yourself that has given the entire service such a bad name.
Grow up for God’s sake. My question to the Chief Secretary is simply this – will 2% make any real impact on our problem? I really do not understand why it isn’t at least 5% or even possibly 10%. That’s definitely more in line with the gravity of the current situation.
Amen to that Good post. Some people just dont think before they engage their mouths or put pen to paper. Thats what all civil servants should do tell the government that they can no longer afford to send their children to private school and demand placement of their kids in government schools. The law says they must attend school so let them find space for them.
Guess we will see there will be use for the new schools built.
What a nasty person. He/she (I assume he) threatens to jeopardise his children’s education for $100 a month. Maybe you should stop paying for broadband instead. Exactly the kind of troublemaker the civil service could do without.
Ooh you wanna go there do you.
Well I do pay my duty but how about you not turning a blind eye to your buddy coming in who is claiming no duty but has 5 bags for each person in his group and only away for 3 days. That song goes many ways.
Yes please do take your kids out of private school and creating yourself unneeded debt and place them in Government schools so we can request government re-establish the CI$50 or CI$100 or even CI$200 per child per year fees so it can generate money there. I have no issue with that at all.
Then you can pay your 50% of Health and Pensions like the rest of us with all that extra money you now have lying around. See how I just got the government extra money??
From what I see Government is winning all the way around.
You not saying all Civil Service but people of YOUR mentality have been raping us for FAR TOO LONG. We put our children in Government schools because we can’t afford to send them to Private and you go flaunting your private school in front of us. We pay all these indirect taxes for your Private School kids silly. You and your kids enjoy those luxuries on our penny.
So Government I emplore you to re-establish Education fees and hit up all civil service for the 50% on Pensions and Health and set Pensions like the rest of us to 10% cap not 12%.
You have no clue how lucky you are. Many of us are loosing our jobs. That’s 100% of our salary and you complain about 2%??? HOW DARE YOU!!
You selfrighteous….ooh don’t let me start.
We are in hard times get over your 2% it’s pittance.
Its the weekend, which is my time. Ill let your blood boil for a couple days and reply to you fully on Monday, during work hours. Enjoy your weekend.
Benefits such as sitting on a warm seat all day long doing nothing. The hardest thing many civil servants do is try to keep themselves awake so that the public dont catch them sleeping.
Try paying a bill at any Government collection center and see how much your blood pressure rises before you get the payment done.
Please enlighten us ignorant civil servants who is tightening their belts and how? I am sure the private sector is not taking at 10% pay cut so why should we. Also our health and pension benefits are part of our remuneration package and not extra as you all feel. We get less wages than the private sector but take the government jobs because of the other benefits that come with it.
I pay import duty down to the last one cent of the dutiable portion of my purchases.
No problem paying half my health insurance – as long as I have a choice of healthcare provider!
Just wanted to clarify something in your article. It is 4 days of paid leave in lieu, not unpaid leave. Or at least that is what someone within the civil service told me
No there I don’t think government is going to give us paid leave in lieu and cut our pay at the same time, kinda defeats the purpose.
Perhaps you need to investigate before you open your mouth, or put your fingers on the keyboard; it is paid leave in lieu!!! I know that for a fact!!
Dear James Watler;
So how is Government going to survive if there isn’t at least a temporary pay cut? And for God in heaven’s sake, stop blaming it on PFML, expats or other things like that-that’s looking for an easy out. You all need to pay for your pension and healthcare. Simple! And retire the bloody seat warmers who got into the Service when they were 17/18 40 years ago and have done sod all since. If you want a list, post your request here and I will let you know the names.
Once again Mr. Watler did not say that civil servants were not to take the pay cut. He only advised that for government to do so would be illegal however, he said if that is the route that government was going to take then he would reconvene another meeting with civil servants and take advise from them as to what they wanted to do. Stop bashing Mr. Watler when all he is doing is trying to collectively represent civil servants to protect their rights and benefits.
i would Love a copy of their names. Its time for them to go. The younger Generations years ago never opened their mouths. The times have changed and so have the Generations. We the younger Caymanians need to have some say and some postions to fill.
Come on guys – the Civil Service is overstaffed and the private sector is understaffed with Caymanians. Although this is not the only answer there ought to be at least a 10% reduction in Civil Servants with immigration inand labour ensuring that they be given first choice in suitable private sector employment. Dedicated and hard working civil servants should not be forced to take a pay cut because the seat warmer next to them has to be paid to do little to nothing. Many of the under-occupied are very capable. Get them into hotels and banks and construction companies.
Unfortunately, the Civil Service is staffed with Caymanians the private sector fires or doesn’t want. It’s a fact. Government is considered an entitled place for every useless Caymanian who can’t make it elsewhere. This is very sad because there are LOTSof EXCELLENT Caymanians in the Service who are tarnished by this image of the "unemployable except by Government".
This post will probably get hostile responses, but I know. I worked there. In a department of 50, 10 were totally not needed, 3 were always "sick", 5 were absolutely useless (one is still there racking up 35+ years) etc etc.
Well said. I still work for the government and agree with your post 110% – far too much dead weight in many departments. Heads of Departments needs to be held accoutable for the dead weight in their departments
Well I guess you were one of the 10 useless workers you speak of and s you did your part and left. Now I guess you are taking up space in the private sector and saving the government some money , so just be quiet now
Sorry Anon at Friday 22:32. I was approached by the private sector, offerred a huge increase and took it. Hardly the result of being one of the ten.
But I repeat, there are LOTS of EXCELLENT Caymanians in the civil service (furrinas too) and it is a shame they have to put up with the useless dead weight around them being paid the same or even more than they are.
is true you all need to get caymanians in the civil service like police, teaching, worst of all prison. go around and see how many expats in these jobs. this will help lots of caymaninas get a job and be proud to serve una country, most countries you have to be citizen to get a job with gov’t wake up, instead putting caymanian out a job cut the 15% for expats in these areas who contribut not a thing here but send all the money to the home land