God is not the Creator, claims academic
(Telegraph): The notion of God as the Creator is wrong, claims a top academic, who believes the Bible has been wrongly translated for thousands of years. Professor Ellen van Wolde, a respected Old Testament scholar and author, claims the first sentence of Genesis "in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth" is not a true translation of the Hebrew. She claims she has carried out fresh textual analysis that suggests the writers of the great book never intended to suggest that God created the world — and in fact the Earth was already there when he created humans and animals.
Category: World News
Who has seen the wind? Neither I nor you.
But when the fart passes by, smell we do.
Everyone has seen the wind.
Wind is merely air in motion, and everyone has seen their own breath on a cold day, the fog moving over the land, or the dancing of flames and smoke from a fire.
You are an 1diot playing semantic word games. What smells like a fart is your limited IQ.
All I know is this…
My original Black African a$$ wouldn’t be "Christian" had it not been for murderous, gun-toting, Bible thumping "Christian" White Europeans (not being racist – simply stating historical facts) that came and plucked my forefather from his rightful home on the planet’s most earthly continent.
His captors justified their actions for 400 years and used the Holy Bible to demonstrate how they were in fact blessed in their actions of capturing, enslaving, jam-packing, shipping, chain-ganging, marketing, whipping, raping, lynching,dismembering, slaughtering, quartering, "genociding" etc., etc., etc. complete generations of men, women and children as they built up the "West" and secured the economic position of America and Europe as it stands today.
However, my forefathers were actually given a choice in the matter – adopt Christianity or have your head blown off – so nice of them wasn’t it?
Although, I shouldn’t really take it personal as the same attractive option was presented to many a people; Native Americans, Incas, Arawaks, Caribs, even way over in Asia as well. They were even kind enough to bless the innocent babies and toddlers of the native Central American people before they literally bashed their brains in with their stone-headed wodden clubs – a guarantee of a heavenly ascent of the soul, how sweet!
I am sure someone will regurgitate the the same ‘ol tired excuses and justifications of "those were the acts of men – not religion / God" – regardless, these are the actions and legacies that have brought us (everyone) to where we are today.
Tell me, should I now be thankful that my people were made to endure such inhumane cruelty for hundreds of years?
Is the fact that I was born and raised "Christian" the positive pay-off for such cruelty and wickedness?
Am I somehow "better off" than my Muslim blood relatives that still exist in the true "mother land"? (Though, the Arabs / North Africans were not exactly fans of K-Y Jelly during their earlier descent into Western Africa either).
What then is the pay-off for those that committed these acts – most notably, within the spiritual context?
Does anyone find it disturbing that the most powerful (and filthy rich by the way) bodies of the Christian faith (Vatican etc.) were granted their prowess and wealth on the blood, sweat and destruction of so many human beings? It has long been proven that these entities were complicit and at times directly responsible for countless atrocities dished out to mankind throughout history.
Honestly, how can these possibly be truly "righteous" organisations? Just a simple question.
I know many folks take great offense when reminded of such truths but this is the reality of how we arrived at our respective, collective socio-economic, "racial" and religious places in this (western) world that we live today.
What makes this whole story even more disturbing is the FACT of how the integral elemet of "Christianity" (Mary / virgin birth / Christ) was in fact stolen from ancient African (yes, not Greek) legends / religions / artwork / depictions. (Considering that Africa is the cradle of civilisation and mankind it only makes logical sense anyway – honestly, the dismissal of all things African by the hundreds of scholars and experts throughout time is absolutely amazing! Research the facts surrounding the "Venus figurines" and the lies and deception propped up around them. All one can say is wow – are you serious?!)
Had the blue eyed and blonde haired Jesus Christ of the Europeans been properly depicted I truly doubt things would have turned out in the way that they have. This folks is simply the fickle nature of man.
Question: Is everyone reading this fully aware that there is NO WAY that the Christ you pray to could have possibly possessed the "racial" features that he does in our standard illustrations? No my friends, think more – Osama Bin Laden.
At this point some may retort with "Why does that even matter?" Well, again, history comes into the equation. The historical dominance and secured position of Europeans in the western world was built upon the "fact" that they were the people closest to God as they looked just like him. Interesting, as those at the top and truly "in-the-know" knew full well that they were exhibiting a terribly inaccurate misconception, aka, lie. Sadly, this misconceived notion is seered into the psyche of the western world – whether welike to admit it or not … and this still offers many advantages to many people to this very day. Weird how this world works huh?
Most folks in the Cayman Islands do not properly align themselves with historical facts and like to champion fables of;
"My great, great, great, great Grandmother was married to a wonderful Scottish man – that’s how I get this surname!" (Sigh).
If people insist on consciously limiting their understanding of the harsh history of the world then yes – the dominance of Christianity in the Western world appears to be a wonderful and enlightening phenomenon.
However, as a teenager I opened books and researched historical facts for myself and in doing so I came to understand what is truly what.
When one ignores the greater ugly truth surrounding the chosen faith of the Cayman Islands and selects the perspective of the "righteous, God-fearing, good, "Christian" Europeans (For real folks?! Those drunken, crazy, treasure chasing, soul-less b*stards?! **Not "Europeans" as a whole – here I am more or less referring to the front-liners of the explorers / "settlers"), then yes, the reality of us being a "Christian country" is a romantic one indeed.
Sadly though, history is history, and what truly baffles me is how one is often "forced" to separate history and "religion" at times of debate on the matter. This to me is quite absurd as our history was in fact justified by and burrowed through upon the back of Christianity / religion.
As you can see much of my offering has been centered on historical, political, "racial", economic and power-seeking factors. What we can also see is that there appears to be a COLOSSAL absence of "righteousness" and or a Christian attitude that brought us to this point.
So … help me out here – someone, anyone …
I was truly impressed with your writing…Thank you for taking the time to express articulately what you believe…I hope others will be as impressed and inspired by your words as I was…
I always say that the first step in solving a problem is to recognise its existence, which is why I am happy that you asked for help. I can’t help you, but I think there is an anger management expert listed in the Yellow pages who may be able to assist. Good luck.
With religion, I think people have a choice whether they want to believe in whatever religion they want, or not believe in it if they want.
Being agnostic, is basically saying you’re not sure. The problem I have with christianity is the hard-core religious. Now, don’t get too excited, and bent out of shape.
In my experience with the hard-core religious. If you feel things are going truly wrong, you tell them you prayed on it, and no change. Immediately, they will say, "maybe God don’t want you to have that." My question is,if that’s so, then why does God want some people to have more than others, and decide who gets what if they both worship him?
Then other times, the hard-core religious will blurt out, in a spat of anger, "God don’t like ugly!" Well, let’s look at ugly, or evil, if you will. I know the bible says that the evil days will be cut short. Then it also says that evil will run rampant. My question is, how does the likes of Charles Manson continue to live. He has outlived his victims, and he may just outlive all of his followers. This brings to mind, it seems that some people are so evil they never die.
Then you have people saying, "treat people the way you want to be treated." Furthermore, going on to say, "give to the poor…do this and do that." Well, most people look at kindness as a weakness. Then when you look at the starvation in the African continent, what gives. The people who suffered during Hurricane Katrina, they are still displaced, scattered throughout the country.
Why I am agnostic, because it’s always a double standard. I’ve also noticed the churches are not the way they used to be. In the 1970s, I remember when people would come to the church when they were hungry, and/or had no place to live. The church would then take up a collection for that person, and find a place for the person to live. I don’t see that happening anymore. Yet, to me, it seems the church always have their hands out, but, I don’t see them giving to the needy. I also noticed that the missionaries have to pay for their own living arrangement/expenses, travel…
Throughout the years, I’ve noticed that not all church leaders have a passion for, or practice what they preach.
Does this stop me from trying to do good? No! Instead of giving money to the church, when I see homeless people, I help them. I donate to homeless shelters…
I consider myself agnostic. I embrace science and am facinated by it. But there are a number of things that always makes me wonder if there is a superior being or essence.
How is it possible that some electrical strike or whatever was sufficient to kick off life? If I accept that it is possible, why was there a need to create a male and female of each species? Why was there a need to propriate? It seems somewhat inefficient to need both? Why do we feel emotions such as love – what scientific purpose could it serve? Even at a base standard, lust could fufil any abstract scientific need – yet love which seems to have no scientific purpose nonetheless remains? Why is there a need to evolve? Why is there a need to laugh or express any emotion? Why is there a need to be born or to die? Why is there a will to live? Why is there free will? Why is there right and wrong? Why is there a need to be entertained? Why is there an innate need to be comfortable? I guess I am asking what is the purpose of it all?
Unfortunately the more I get into science, the less convinced I am that it can offer all the answers. The problem as I see it though is that religion has hijacked and wrongly claimed to be agents for the greater being or entity.
In response to comment
I have a proposition – the "inefficient" need of two to propriate is a form of quality control. Emotions such as love are useful – they engender a couple to stay together – and engender them to give their offspring the extended care they need. There are species that do not form long term relationships – and their offsprng usually needs no care…
The rest however I couldnt begin to find resonable (non-personal) answers to, and I guess many others couldn’t either. What is life? has been one of the questions debated a 1000 times over for just as long.
TO BELIEVE OR NOT TO BELIEVE. I ask myself some simple questions.
How do I feel when I try to do the best I can.
How do I feel when I can help someone in need.
How do I feel to respond with a kind word.
How do I feel to give and not to receive.
How do I feel when my family prays together.
"VERY GOOD."
Being the opposite of all of those questions, makes me feel ill.
Even if God is not exactly what we think he is , I feel more comfort in believing that there is a God.. Everyone of us has a right to our own opinion about God, but it takes much more than going to church to have that one on one relationship. It takes time out. In the wilderness or on the ocean, you may experience things that you are too afraid to share with anyone. Believe me something is out there greater than you and me. Blessed
Hmmm… reading these posts made my head spin first this way, then that way.
Makes one dizzy. Everybody, please take a breath and a break. Why don’t we just live and let live whether there’s a god or not for when one’s time comes, believers and non-believers die anyway.
THEN – they can continue the debate ad infinitum by telling each other "I told you so"! In the meantime, enjoy the moment – for its very brief.
Who was it that once said: "Anyone convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still?"
According to the Bible that there will be no women in heaven.
Revelations 8:1 (New International Version)
When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Hi CNS,
You must be Michael Vick Fans you know the NFL the star who went to jail for not only dog fighting but for brutalizing his own dogs.
It seems that you all throw some raw meat into the pit just to see the dogs tear one another apart.
Is it really news that some so-called theologian in the UK is now claiming to have understood what God intended to have penned in the Bible?
Isn’t there a park in England where people get up on soap boxes everyday and utter similar fantasies? Why not simply put a video clip of one of those fruitcakes on CNS? What makes this individual’s findings so unique? Is it because the Telegraph ran the story?
I don’t see how this particular thread is going to be of any real benefit. It’s just another opporunity for agnostics and atheists to mock the faith of the people of this country, and for those who aren’t skilled in explaining their faith to display their ignorance.
I am not criticizing free speech or your site, but you know very well what you are doing. If you really want something international and revelant why not run the story about the man who accidentally shot his fiance in their home thinking she was an intruder? These days everyone is more concerned about protecting themselves in their homes than anything else, yet tragedies like this are real possibilities. Now that’s a conversation that would be fruitful.
I am just sick and tired of the divisiveness and these types of topics are just raw meat for hungry and angry dogs. I hope these types of topics aren’t some type of twisted journalistic bloodsport at the expense of our social harmony.
Settle down. Go chase a car.
Say Om
ruff
Churches and religions are not negative on the whole. It’s the people who exist in the church in Cayman who breed ignornace and intolerance, not the religion. Get it straight
Now that’s bizarre statement: "It’s the people who exist in the church in Cayman who breed ignornace and intolerance, not the religion. Get it straight"
Uh, sorry, but the Christians in Cayman are far LESS ignorant and intolerant than their Bible would have them be. Of course, like most Christians, you probably haven’t actually read the whole Bible. If you did, you would realize just how backward and mean you are supposed to be as a good follower of the Good Book.
–R. Parsley
i wasn’t going to comment. but i’m finding this discussion very interesting. one thing that i’m having a wee bit of a problem with is that many of the posters keep referring to god as a man. this may not be the case at all or at least the spirit many of us of believe in is distorted by this. overall what i see are very many patriarchal religions and i’ve oftened wondered at the cause of this. i have beliefs but i’ve never put a face to it. or a gender. maybe it’s time we stopped?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam have male god figures because they are all myths created by male dominated, women-hating cultures.
If you don’t believe it, read the source materials: Torah, Bible, Koran.
-Dr. Reginald Cherry
Dear Cherry Colon,
You obviously have a sound knowledge of the characters within modern christianity as you sign yourself off as a different one each time. Do I detect a backslidden christian perhaps?
Anyway, chill out and spend a little time with your first love. When you moved, the Lord did not. He is still waiting for you and will continue to do so hoping for your soon return.
Blessings.
Perhaps the Auditor General could investigate and let us know his findings
Rather not my friend. This is a very good topic for us all to discuss. To answer your question, God has a male component AND a female component as you will read toward the end of Genesis, but you will also see occasionally in everyday life.
These two components are in perfect, loving harmony as is reflected by some peoples’ marriage from time to time. You know, the ones who stay together for ever and even end up looking like each other and can’t bear to be separated.
Then read Luke chapter 2 and you will see the astonishing truth of who the Saviour really is. The product of two loving Beings, perfect in every way, yet a willing sacrifice. It beggars belief. We really need to step up to the plate and become all that we are capable of. We are from eternity and to eternity we shall return.
You gotta smile at the hippie song of the 60’s. "We are stardust, we are golden and we have to return to the garden"
Peace and love to all.
american zeitgeist, WATCH IT, LEARN from it and BELIEVE IT. This is a 2 hour long documentary that is broken down into 3 sections, the first section speaks about religion and its origins. Christians tend to be rigid in their beliefs about fairy tales, so I dont expect many people to believe the historical FACTS that are presented, but please try for a minute to have an open mind. If you still decide to believe after watching this documentary, then so be it, but until you have come into contact with overwhelming FACTS about religion, then really and truely you are fooling yourselves.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1817848131611744924&ei=SoLTSsfdDcLrlQfLwbGOBQ&q=american+zeitgeist#
why should I believe? Another person saying what they THINK again? Facts…? How do we KNOW that in 1503 Columbus found Cayman? We were not there… takes faith to trust that claim… same way you say that the Bible isn’t true because man interpreted it wrong, history books could be misleading… not that I am say that they are but think about it…
Men deceive and lie. Our words and how we use them are misleading. I trust that we all discover truth for ourselves. Not the truth that means I accept what I want because it’s easiest to me but the truth that is so compellingly real to us that we cannot ignore it. That truth comes from an action not a dictation.
See to believe? But how can I see God ifHe is invisible? Ask Him that and really listen for His answer.
I wonder what position CNS has about God now after reading all of these comments? Trust we are sure by the end of this…?
Zeitgeist is as stupid and irrational as Christianity.
Think for yourselves, people. Think!
Here this is for all my non-believing hearts….I pray your journey is at peace.
CNS: Thankful – that was too long. Can you just post the link?
— Albert Camus
How silly.
Okay, so which god are you going to believe in so that you can "play it safe"? Which religion are you going to follow, just in case? There are thousands, remember.
You better be a Hindu… better safe than sorry.
You better be a Muslim… better safe than sorry.
You better be a Christian… better safe than sorry.
You better be a pagan… better safe than sorry.
etc, etc……
I would rather live my life as a free and rational creature, living fairly, compassionately and honestly in accordance with human virtues, and presume that whatever comes after death, if anything, it will treat me kindly for living in accordance with those human virtues.
If not, then xxxx ’em.
Well said. I’m with you.
" I am with both of you" 🙂
-Islandboz
Hmmm. This doesn’t sound like Camus. It sounds like a variation of Pascal’s wager to me. (I did click the link you provided, but it doesn’t list a source. I think it’s been misattributed. Anyone know for sure??)
Camus was more inclined to say things like:
"…I shall not, as far as I am concerned, try to pass myself off as a Christian in your presence. I share with you the same revulsion from evil. But I do not share your hope, and I continue to struggle against this universe in which children suffer and die."
(at the Dominican Monastery of Latour-Maubourg in 1948)
Here’s a link to part of that speech:
http://meanderthal.typepad.com/meanderthal/2005/01/the_unbeliever_.html
There’s a flip side to this. You could live your life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t – you’d be disappointed.
Or, live your life as if there isn’t, and die to find out there is – that would be a miracle.
Maybe this is a good time to read Dan Brown’s new book "The Lost Symbol"
At first blush that seems like unique common sense. However, if you use that argument, you best take care that you follow the right "god" because wagering on the wrong god lands you in hot water anyway.
Ah! And therein lies the rub!
Which of the ones revered as "god" by the countless various religions and denominations do you wager is the right one and how do you know your gamble is correct?
Is the true God the triune Father-Son-Holy Ghost entity of the Baptists? Is it "Jehovah"? And if it is Jehovah you follow, do you follow the Jehovah of the Jews or the Jehovah of the Jehovah’s Witnesses? (BIG difference there!) What if Allah is the right one and Muhammed the true Prophet? (Sheer numbers tend to suppport the latter choice, so do you buck the odds and pick another deity?)
Or maybe your tastes run a bit more toward the esoteric and ancient: so what of the pagan goddesses?
And do you just choose a god and live your life believing in Him or Her or it in your own personal way, or does one have to buy into the whole enchilada of a particular organised denomination in order not to loose the wager? Now it REALLY gets complicated!
My friend, with so many gods and groups to choose from your odds of getting it right seem dangerously slim to me.
Sorry, but Albert Camus’ quote is a bit broad and vague. Typical of the hocus pocus of those who would persuade one to believe their way. Upon more careful analysis the statement does not exemplify any common sense.
God declares Himself to be a Spirit. An interesting comparison is water which has 3 forms, two of which are visible, ice and water. The third form is vapour which is for the most part invisible. So if you condensed vapour out of the air, you could freeze it and something visible would appear from something invisible.
God is eternal and infinite and perfect in love. He never had a beginning and will never have an end. Nothing existed before Him, so like any workman, He would have had to use the toolsand materials at His disposal when He decided to create the visible world.
I put it to you that it makes perfect sense that He created everything out of Spirit, which the ancient philosophers surmised many years ago and Paul quotes in the Acts, "In Him, we live and move and have our being". You see, He is all and in all and all is of Him. He hides Himself in open view and only the eyes of a child can see Him.
He is not scolding us, nor has He forgotten us, rather we have forgotten Him. He watched His only Son, a perfect, obedient Son, go to a shameful death that we may have our eyes opened again.
Please don’t hate me because I have found the love of God, and to those who claim to have found it, don’t hate those who have not, rather be patient and show by humble example.
Any so-called christian who has taken up a weapon in the name of God is not a true follower because Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world, so there is nothing to fight for.
The word "Repent" simply means change direction, but we use it as an axe to beat people to death with as we ram religion down their throats. The truth will never be found in religion, rather in love, for God is love. He will cleanse us, forgive us and help us overcome our fears. Give Him a chance.
Love to all. A fellow soul wandering this earth.
You say "only the eyes of a child can see Him". Quite right. Just like Santa Claus, Pixies and the Easter Bunny!
This was a poor answer to a compassionate post and not offering hope to anyone. I feel sorry for you that the sum of your intellect is to be so dismissive with less-than-childish arrogance.
Yet you have exercised your free will and God bless you for that.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
He is willing to prevent evil and He is able and He most certainly is omnipotent. He asks us to exercise faith. Many do, most don’t.
He is able, willing and benevolent. Malevolence comes from satan who will use all those whom he has deceived.
Evil comes because God has given us a free choice and we choose to do evil as we are seduced by satan and his spirits.
I call Him God because He is the only one to whom I will trust my eternal destiny. I love Him and hope that those seeking true meaning in life will find him too.
"He is willing to prevent evil and He is able and He most certainly is omnipotent."
But he doesn’t. Therefore your God is malevolent.
I hope god doesn’t read CNS!
This topic is too hot for me, If I was some of you I would do the same, because God don’t sleep. When the Angel of Death come knocking don’t cry out for God, you non beleivers.
don’t think death discriminates between believers and non-believers! isn’t the holiest christian, muslim and judaist site the center of a never ending blood-bath?
That’s why I offer Buddhism as a better religion for the Cayman Islands. Abandon the evils of murderous religions! Embrace the everlasting love and peace of Buddhism. Study the ancient writings of Mallanāga Vātsyāyana and implement all its teachings. Find Nirvana and abandon the suffering inherent in senient beings. Let us pray.
yes,…but in order to attain enlightement one must first give up all worldly possessions and live only on the kindness and genorisity of others…sorry, but I think that would be a hard sell in a country where material possessions take a priority over everything else, I feel you will be just another voice in the wilderness…Namaste!
Namaste, Pale Rider.
In the words of Steven Segal, I am not that kind of Buddhist…
Marx, Camus and, erm, Steven Seagal. Quite a spread we have on this one.
The "Angel of Death" is made up too. Nothing to fear here, folks. Go about your business and have a nice day. Move along…
Good advice. The only positive thing about there being no god is I don’t have to worry about hell.
Is everyone sure we are agreeing with this? What’s the consensus?
Is there a God or not?
hmmm, if God doesn’t exist, how’d he create man?
Does this story say there’s no God, or that he created man but not the world?
If God made man but not the world, then who made the world and is that being in fact greater than God?
Would he not be God?
If God isn’t God, who is God?
And to my friends who claim to be Bible scholars, if I believe in God but not what he says, do I really believe God? Or is my faith misplaced to a state of making myself comfortable and maybe I can remove what other scriptures I feel like??? Maybe I’ll just recreate who I think God should be to me?
Hey! What if my god says your god isn’t real??? And my truth says your’s is a lie? : o
2nd comment but maybe it’ll take a 3rd for CNS to publish…?
CNS: Patience is a virtue, I hear.
my humble apologies to CNS, maybe God made them???
If I may add… the truth about God, man’s creation, or the universe is not in who has the biggest arguement or who can prove the most facts.
Would I say bleach is bad til I’ve tried it? Would I say water is good unless I’ve had it? It does take another to warn of the consequences of drinking bleach or to tell of how refreshing water is. But we can only be SURE of what we’ve tried.
With that said, I will not attempt to rationalize God to you but ask you to prove Him for yourself.
I don’t believe our issue here is whether God created anything but our issue is God Himself. We want explanations and justifications as to why our lives are the way they are. Some of us see no reason to believe of a Godmuch less in a God.
The arguments could go on forever, and they have been. No post or comment will end this chain. People will argue but words will get no further than the experiences of those who listen/ read.
I dare you to test God and ask Him to prove Himself to you… take that as your answer instead adopting someone elses…
People:
lol
Like it’s said:
If EVERY effect HAS A cause, and GOD created the World –
THEN, WHO CREATED GOD???
God created himself, duh!
What a waste of a life’s work. Whether you believe in a God or not this can you imagine, this woman seriously spends her days reading thousand year old writings for what purpose? To create a useless debate?
All I am going to say is, that there is something out there greater than I. Want to feel the presence of God, Sit quietly in your garden five o clock in the morning, look to the heavens and ask for his devine presence. Feel the breeze as it moves and say "God is that you"? Close your eyes and experience an out of body spiritual relation with the father, and pray.
You ask for it, and you will get it. But you have to be very careful when doing this, because if you do not ask for Gods presence, then you may be visited by ther other spirit "The Spirit of Darkness", which is always present.
Knowing God is having faith as small as a mustard seed. Not everyone will receive the experience of a spritual relation with God. But for those who have, I say "Thank God, you are one of the chosen few".
Blessed be the name of the Lord, "Something is out there" Walk good.
Oh I forgot to mention: I guess Caymanians came up with God (singular) save the Queen! and in God (singular) we trust – as print on the US$.
As it is written: Psalms 14:1 Only a fool says there is no GOD.
Well that’s not a very Christian thing for the bible to say now is it?
As it is written: http://centos6-httpd22-php56-mysql55.installer.magneticone.com/o_belozerov/31115drupal622/comment/reply/3632/32974. Only a fool says that only a fool says that there is no god. Only a fool.
My argument beats your argument.
Matthew 5:22 — "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
Ooops, if you just suggested that I’m a fool, it looks like you’re in trouble, according to your own book of rules.
Don’t worry, hell is where all the interesting people are.
How convenient – this is why you cannot debate with religious types.
Please take note all of you detractors, if CIMA says it is so, then it is so. End of discussion. Your free thinking ways are not welcome here, please take them elsewhere.
Believers here keep saying: "Something cannot come from nothing" and "everything must have a creator"
Please do some reading people. This sort of argument for gods were demolished a long, long time ago. It’s sad that people today keep repeating them.
Okay, so where did your god come from? If you say he is infinite then you just broke your own made-up rule. If your god can be infiinte, then maybe matter can too.
Another point they are missing is that this old and empty argument does not support the existence of their particular god over any of the other thousands of gods people have made up.
"Something can’t come from nothing"
Great, then Amun, the Egyptian creator god, must be real!
No wait, Ipalnemoani, the Aztec creator god, must be real!
No wait… this could go on forever….
There also seems to be this odd idea here that "if nonbelievers can’t explain everything in the universe, then my god has to be real." This is silly.
Being honest enough to say, "I don’t know" has nothing to do with whether or not Apollo, Allah, or Jok are real gods. If you claim one of them or some other god is real, then you are the one who has the repsonsibility of coming up with at least one good argument or some shred of credible evidence to back the claim.
It says a lot that no one to date has managed to do that.
Just keepin’ it real,
Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
McKeeva created the earth….he said so and also said that he created everything even things that existed before he was in politics so so it must be so Cayman !!!!
Ahhh the great West Bay God….McDinejad !!!!!!!
Just ignore this rubbish, it all started with the scientific theory of the "big bang", I have been trying to find out ever since who caused the "big bang" but up until now I have had no answer! The same now applies to the remarks made by the good lady professor, so can she answer my original question and also tell me where the original world came from? I see the observation came from Amsterdam so "nough" said if you get my drift. I am reminded of the old adaged which says, "Those whom the gods would destroy the first make mad!" Maybe with what is going on in the world today, God our Father and Creator may be thinking along those lines.
"I have been trying to find out ever since who caused the "big bang" but up until now I have had no answer!" Physicists have a fairly good idea now of what lead up to the Big Bang and there is good evidence of pre-Big Bang noise being detected. The post below referring to membranes touches on this.
Just ignore this rubbish, it all started with the relgious theory of the "big God", I have been trying to find out from beleivers ever since who created the "big God" but up until now I have had no answer!
The thing that gets me is that in the Bible god made his presence directly known to humans on a regular basis (allegedly). It would help if he did that a bit more to help the "does he exist" debate. The face of Jesus in a watermelon does not cut it.
How come he popped up everywhere in the 6,000 years of Earth’s existence (allegedly), but hasn’t appeared in modern times? God’s will or evidence that the Bible was in large part cobbled together from fairy stories?
Other phenomenom occurred throughout life that will give creedence to other beliefs and cultures. I have heard in the past of the Turin shroud image appearing on a piece of toast, the seeds of a water melon spelling the name allah, Vishnu images in Chapatis, statues that allegedly cry milk and even an image of Bishop Brennan appearing on a skirting board.
The same provenance has to be given to all and treated equally. Research has to be given at the same level to all and an open mind kept.
Personally, I will be continuing to open and exam cans of stella artois to see if there is an image of the easter Bunny appear.
Religion is a personal choice, believe what you want, just dont use it as a weapon.
I agree and disagree with you. Here’s my thing, I know that there were disputes with the Bible and Socrates, a Greek philosopher. Example, if you read Plato’s Republic, there were a lot of Greek Gods. In the bible, it warns against Socrates….This is an interesting point you bring up though, especially when you’ve taken some philosophy courses in college. As far as being a non-believer or believer – I’d have to say I’m agnostic.
Reading some of these posts makes me despair for the Cayman Islands.
All of these posts claiming how perfect God is and how bad the article in question was. For a start, I doubt that any of them actually read the article. Anyway, they show just how mentally disturbed some people are in Cayman. It is hardly surprising that there might be limited opportunities for employment or advancement when there are so many sick people like the religious nutters that have posted here.
For your own sake and that of your children CLOSE DOWN THE CHURCHES. They are the cause of all the problems on Cayman.
What a dum-dum. I am in despair for you. I can just read from your posting that you are, what caymanians call, a picky-sum-thing. This mean you like to stir the ca-ca. You like causing strife.
If you believe what you wrote, I truly pity you; but, because I do not believe that you do and instead want to change the debate to pit Caymanians against expats or non-believers against believers (which may fall along the same divide), I would suggest people ignore your spiteful post.
You would like Caymanians to think we should feel inferior (and we dont) because our belief system is firm in our belief in God, but we dont buddy. In fact we are strongly set here and will not budge.
I would say that we have good company: The Presidents of America all openly declare their faith and pray to God. Let me give you something to think about. About 1.2 billion people are of the Christian Faith 33% (the biggest of the faiths) of the world’s population, nonbelievers – of no God that is, makes up about 16%. One in every three scientists in the United States believe in God; Gordon Brown is a PK – Pastor Kid and is a committed christian…I guess we should despair for teh UK and US as well then.
Like I said you are a picky-sum-thing and we should just leave you alone.
Allow me to enlighten you a little bit:
1. Not all Caymanians believe in God, are Christian or read the Bible.
2. Not all expats are non-believers, are atheists or don’t read the Bible.
3. Just because the majority believe that something is right or is the truth does not make it right or the truth.
4. You will not be elected to office in the United States if you aren’t a Christian or at least positively cater to the notion of God.
5. The reason 1.2 billion people are of the Christian Faith are because of campaigns such as the Inquisition and the Crusades – Rome set out to convert the world. The section of Christianity about burning in hell for eternity, which does not exist in most other religions i.e. the eternity part of it, also went a long way in converting people.
6. Christianity is responsible for billions of murders (in the name of God of course) throughout history.
7. The average person, which by the mere mention of average is the majority of persons by the way, are easily manipulated into believing whatever the ruling elite would like them to believe, e.g. Nazi Germany. Only a small minority will question what they are told.
You so missed my points to the stats…..they were to get at the writer above who despaired about the Cayman islands because we believe in God and spoke in degrading terms. I drew reference to the stats to show the company we share.
However, if you challenge the truthfulness of the hearts of the US Presidents then good for you. I would not be as crass.
Further in a previous post I guestimated about 99.9% of native cyamanians do. I could not put a figure to expat community or even our "new" caymanians. However, I do know many expats who believe i God so need to school me.
Again, I am glad you can also judge the eclipe of the hearts of the 1.2 billion and their decisions. I can tell you I know very little about the Nazi Germany, Inquisition and Crusades, only what I have read…and can tell you none of these had any bearings/influence on my eclipse of teh heart. I would dare say that the many in modern times would say the same.
I see you’ve missed my point as well. Quick note: (1) spreading Christianity through the Inquisition and the Crusades, etc. meant the population was converted, subsequent generations naturally leaned towards the religion of their parents, do the math and you would see an exponential increase in the population of Christians over the centuries (2) Nazi Germany is an example of indoctrination and how the majority can be manipulated through the designs of the elite.
And no you would not be as crass as to challenge the truthfulness of the hearts of the US Presidents. Merely as blind not to.
I couldn’t agree more. The Churches really are to blame for most of the problems. BAN RELIGION and save the island
Tax the churches like any other business if they want a say in how the islands are run they should put their money where their mouths are!
Love this story CNS!! you sure know how to get the blogs going hot.
It is clear that God is a vehicle of Faith that does have a purpose…to help people rationalize the most horrific natural acts occurring to them….you have heard the phrase "it is God’s will and He knows best"…God is no more or no less than that…helps you mentally in a jamb.
If you try to ratioanlise God it is impossible…(Yes I know. two complex for us minions to understand) However he goes…
1. If there is only one God…who made Him/her/It??? If no one did..then no need to go any further….nature and the universe could have occurred with out anyone as well.
2. Lets continue as if God just became an entity somehow. Why only one God? Does God have friends with similar powers? What are they up to? Did they create a parallel system and are spending their time keeping track of all their little minions there instead of playing chess with their other friend ,our God? maybe our God is young and just practicing?…may be that explains all the bad things going wrong ( I know, I know, for a reason so complex we cannot understand). Suppose God is really just having fun..sorta like when you played with your toys in the sand box….I sure let lots of "bad" things happen to my toys, and lizards, and ants…hmmm…All good but making bad things happen….can never tell.
3. If God is all powerful, all knowing and all good…why do bad things happen?….oh yes, someone ate an apple somewhere….totally without logic….my kids have done things in past, they got in trouble then but I surely have not left them in permanent trouble. Why would I ? especially if I was a good parent?
4. Can God create a rock so large that he cannot lift it? (I will leave that one for you to work out)
5. If God is so powerful, why do we need priests?…why a middle man that could get it wrong? and why do the churches have to tell you each week how powerful and good your God is?? after 2,500 year we should know that, would you think?
6. Maybe there is a God and he is running his Windows 1,000,000 (actually it would be on a MAC) copy do a Computer Sim? How would we know?
The long and short of it is this….If you Believe in the concept of God.. great! you believe it the concept and if you do not, fine you do not…nothing is ever going to happen to you that does not happen to you.
Faith has no logic as we know it……you believe or you do not believe. And for me? the furthest I will go is that if there is a God….he was just practicing on his Sim programme. He will soon get bored and head out to the cosmic beach with his friends…or maybe he did that some 15 Billion years ago actually. We are just on a runaway universe where bad things happen to good people…
You know what there are many things I am 100% sure I will go to my grave not knowing and amazingly I am happy with that.
As I sit here I believe in a God who is all powerful but equally I believe that the story as we have come to know it is not 100% accurate and where the inaccuracies are I am not sure but I know they are there.
In school as a young child I too played the game of pass the story where 10 kids sat in a line and the first at one end whispered a story into the second kids ear and we all listened to what came out at the 10th childs mouth and it was amazing how in such a short distance over a small amount of exchanges a story could change so greatly.
Now in that context remember that this was exchanged not only person to person but language to language. Now if you know anything about languages you come to unsderstand that even that is extremely tricky business. The same word in one version of spanish could change in another version.
Now throw is sub-languages dialecs if you will and it being translates not just years but tens and hundreds of years later by people who are among a chosen few who even speak the language still.
All I am saying is there is tremendous room for mistakes to be made. Then lets not forget we are talking about times when some people didn’t necessarily like sometimes HOW stuff was said and changed it to suite their beliefs or needs.
All I know is he/she is a wonderful God and whether he/she created everything or somethings. He/she remains my saviour.
Saying all that I will say this. Do not attack the person who seeks to find truth because I believe my Lord hides nothing from us for he/she has no reason to. There will be things we will never understand because we lack true clarity and depth of knowledge to grasp these things.
Dred, in response to your point about potential “passing the story in-accuracies”, there’s a whole chapter dedicated to this point in Strobel’s book, but here’s the summary:
“In passing along as children, half the fun is that the person may not have got it right or even heard it right the first time, and they cannot ask the person to repeat it. Then you immediately pass it along, also in whispered tones that make it more likely the next person will goof something up even more. By the time it has passed 10 people, the results can be funny.
If you really wanted to develop that analogy in light of the checks and balances of the first-century community, you’d have to say that every third person, out loud in a very clear voice would have to ask the first person: “Do I still have it completely right” and change it if he didn’t. Also, the community would constantly be monitoring what was said and intervening to make corrections along the way. That would preserve the integrity of the message. The result would be very different from a childhood game. Not to mention that in an age without computers or printing press, everything was done by word of mouth and Rabbi’s were famous for having the entire Old Testament committed to memory. Something difficult for us to imagine today, but this was an oral culture with great emphasis on accurate memorization.
Now, with regard to translation, same thing. Simply too much info in the book for me to go into, but in summary. Unlike any other literary historical piece, the Bible has unprecedented multiplicity of translated copies from multiple geographical areas that all agree with each other to the very core. We have copies commencing within a couple of generations from the original writings, ranging to five, eight, or even ten centuries since. Also, not only Greek translations, but also Syriac, and secondary translations such as Coptic, Armenian, and Ethiopic. In other words, even if we didn’t have the original Hebrew/Greek translations, we could still reproduce the contents from the matching multiple quotations in commentaries, sermons, letters, etc for early church fathers.
For more info, please refer to Strobel’s excellent book. I love the fact that the Lord is your saviour. My only recommendation is that we educate ourselves as much as possible with facts allowing us to vigorously defend our faith with facts where possible, when we come under attack by God denying intellectuals. The facts are there, it’s up to them to decide whether they continue to deny or accept the Truth.
For the various documents which make up the Bible it would have been very difficult to undergo the checks and balances of that which you mention. Noting that the majority of the ancient of societies were uneducated in the ways of writing, oral history was important amongst those within the lower echelons of society. However, it is also important to note the many ways a single word may be interpreted, even within a given language. A word is given meaning through not only the teaching of someone older than the student but also the experience surrounding that word. The disparity created by experience can be seen even within the region of a single country. A story being passed from the mouth of a person from one region to the ears of someone from a different may take on a whole new meaning regardless of whether they speak the same language – it’s not just the difference between French-speaking Quebec and France, it’s also the difference between Crans Montana and Geneva both in French-speaking Switzerland. In some languages there also does not exist certain words which may exist in other languages.
It must also be noted that Emperor Constantine of Rome can be given credit for the Bible as we have it today. No doubt there lies questionable motive for a pagan Emperor to commission the compilation of a Christian literary work, especially in light that he never converted.
So, with all these variables thrown into the mix – of oral history passed through generations and regions, of translations upon translations, of political motive, etc. – there is no way that the Bible can, without question, be held up as the truth. Let’s just call it a lovely story.
This reminds me of a story I heard once: A leading sciencetist was having a conversation with God. He said "God we don’t need you anymore. With our ability to clone and all we will know how to make man, infact I will show you I can make a man". "Oh really, said God? Lets see you do it" To that the sciencetist reached down for some dirt/mud from the ground…to which God said: " oh no buddy, make your own dirt first!" I nearly had to go change my underwear.
You know i read something in the good book about this kind of mockery and direspect for the truth. It also said, I fool has said in his heart there is no God. Yup go argue with God, He said it in His inspired word – the bible. Boy I tell you…it has never failed me in helping to put sense to the non-sense.
I think I going have a lil tea with this one.
"A leading sciencetist was having a conversation with God. He said "God we don’t need you anymore. With our ability to clone and all we will know how to make man, infact I will show you I can make a man". "Oh really, said God? Lets see you do it" To that the sciencetist reached down for some dirt/mud from the ground…to which God said: " oh no buddy, make your own dirt first!" I nearly had to go change my underwear"
This is actually true, I saw it happen and everything, and Jonny Cake did have to change his underwear.
I won’t touch this one.
But I do believe God created expats
He needed something for the rest of the universe to circle around.
Everyone knows the earth is flat and is the center of the solar system.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/27/david-attenborough-science
….Telling the magazine that he was asked why he did not give "credit" to God, Attenborough added: "They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator."
What’s easier to believe a perfect God creating an imperfect man, or an imperfect man creating a perfect God?
The Earth and man were created by natural processes, some we currently understand, some we are still learning about. If some higher power did have a hand, I doubt we will learn about it reading from a book written by men!
What Natural Process may I ask? Even natural process had to be commanded by some one for it to happen, just like how your brain control every part of your body so come on now there is no way out of this, you know there is a God why keep doubting, you would’nt exist if it was’nt for him.
why a someone instead of a something?
I realize many people feel it easier to believe in a devine being guiding everything, but perhaps the fact that we are here is simply random chance, combined with physics and evolution. I think science has a general handle on how we have come into being, that doesn’t mean that there are still not questions to be answered though.
Of Course it easier to believe that there is a divine being, a car would not move unless you drive it, same goes for the earth it would not exist unless he ( God ) said so, nothing in the universe did not happen by chance but a creator this is what science in general have to learn to respect instead of creating this fantasy of chance or whatever they call it.
"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions."
Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right
Good sweet Jesus. I guess am to believe that quote by Karl Marx over my King James version?! Further, the question was about God and not religion. Throw that in the mix and you got another level.
I believe the good Lord is allowing man to enjoy and explore the sciences. The ultimate will be a great realization that He exist.
One of the big discoveries by leading scienctists in looking at some cliffs and caverns, i believe, is that they are finding that in order for the rock they were studying to come to existence, it required certain key elements to come together at once or simultaneously. In other words the process of evolution could not have produced it. The elements need to happen at once – like bang!
The acceptance of ones’ heart is an individual journey. I say unna best stop wasting time with this decision. The way the world sometimes seems to be going to hell in a hand basket…I would say unna not got a whole heap of time with this one.
I believe in the big bang theory…God said let there be light (genesis) and BANG there was light 🙂 hello.
where my good ole maxwell house is.
I think colliding membranes coupled with a multiverse theory has more credibility than magic, sorry god’s will, when its comes to the origins of the universe. The maths seems to work it better.
PS Johnny, if you believe in the accuracy of Genesis where is the firmament then? You shows us the firmament and I will start listening to what the rest of the Bible has to say.
Wha you say you hindging your destiny on me showing you a firmament? Yeah, I can show you a firmament as much as you can show me a monkey transforming to a human being. My grandmother lived to be 100 years old and her parents were good and old themsleves and so did my great great grand. Without reading any history books, of other human beings, my family alone (a few hundred years old) were all humans and the monkey’s were still swing from trees.
Buddy…if I did not consider this topic so important, not as much to me, as I believe it means to God…I would really tell you about finding a firmament. So for now, I would say: it not so important that I show you a firmament as it is important that you weigh the importance of knowing who created all that we enjoy in this lil earth ya. It is abig decision ya nah. But I seen it happen many times…draw close to God (yearning and searching) and He will take pleasure in the enlightening process that is sure to show you that firmament and more.
Just said a silent lil prayer for ya my friend.
I need it black with lil sugar.
As they nearly said in the movie, show me the firmament. The firmament is central to the creation story in Genesis. How can I believe the rest of the creation story if you can’t help me on this one?
"My grandmother lived to be 100 years old and her parents were good and old themsleves and so did my great great grand."
Congratulations so if your 100 too, and your ancestors were especially virial and all gave birth at 40 to the kids, that means you "great great grand" would have been born 100+40+40+40+40=260 years ago.
As Jesus was born over 2000 years ago surely even someone of your apparent intellect can see why monkeys were around when your gret great grands were LOL
Evolution of humans from more primavtive primates (if you choose to believ it) happened more than a million years ago, so a "little" futher back than you 240 years.
I think you may need more sugar in your coffee to cure that bitterness
First of all, God is perfect and He created man & women perfectly, but wanting their independence they deviated from God’s plan and sin entered the world with all the consequences, several of which being described in many of these postings. Good news is at least He offers a way out for the ones choosing to believe and have faith, and one day it will be restored.
If God created humans perfectly then they wouldn’t have deviated in the first place – unless, that is of course, God’s idea of perfect is the violent yet kind, ugly yet beautiful, mess that we are. Maybe your God likes to see humans in pain and suffering.
Okay, let me see if I got this right: The god who does not really exist did not really create the Earth?
Wow, that is profound. It’s a waste of time wrapped up inside of a delusion.
But wait, why is this woman making noise? Did she stop reading the Bible at Genesis?
If she had kept reading she would see that women are supposed to be the property of men, to keep quiet, do chores and have babies for men. Guess she didn’t reach that part yet.
Love, T. Haggard
That is pretty vicious. Don’t want to be you.
The bible was written by men, in case you need some enlightenment on that. Of course, they will write such utter garbage. A person cannot and should not be owned, whether through slavery or marriage or any means.
Men created the bible, men decided what was to be put in the Bible, men dictated what the Bible should mean.
Unfortunately, there are far more simpletons in this world than we need and they follow without question. You are, indeed, sheep!
oooo, lets talk about what man created…
Man created his own gods
Man created science and theories to discredit existence of any god
Man created guns, bombs and chemicals to destroy millions
Man created justification to go to war
Man created weapons in general and the justification to use them
Man created abortion
Man created a need for sexual perversions
Man created financial systems and markets that crashed
Man created an atmosphere of lies, hate and envy against ourselves
Seems man created all but the universe and himself… hmmm
But wait, humans aren’t that bad, maybe the devil did those things… ooops… but if I blame the devil and there’s no god, who has ultimate power? mmm… maybe we’ll just stick to humans as the ultimate being, shoot, forgot, maybe matter should be most power, afterall it created us, or wait… aaaa, now I’m confused… ???
We discredit our own ideas daily, waiting for the next shot at explaining existance. Maybe I’ll believe that one too. (relativity doesn’t mean your right, just that your convinced you are)
I think you confused the rest of us as well…what were you responding to?
Relativity doesn’t mean you’re right, nor does it mean that you are convinced you are right. However, it is another perspective on things. Not being one of the sheep does not mean you’re right nor does it mean you’re wrong. It merely means you do not subscribe to the status quo.
Wow, a top academic says God did’nt created the Earth, so then who did? Because as far as I know nothing can exist on it’s own for there is always a maker and for the earth and all other Planets to exist there would have to be some form of a supernatural being to that and that is where God comes in for he is not unlike men even though he created man in his own image for no man is above him nor angels which makes him Immortal. We would never know how he done it, but surely the earth is beautiful and well thought out, just take a look at our own body even that is unique in the way it is structure. The top academic needs to take a deep breathe and look around at the earth and exhale and say there is a God who created this beautiful earth and all that is in it and around it. And in the Bible, what is it writing so it should be, in the other words the top academics should stop turning the bible upside down to satify their own beliefs.
Then who did?
Wasn’t me man. I just got here.
WOW, I never read more foolishness in my life, well then Professor Wolde who made the Earth and the 8 other Planets? Yes including the Sun, Stars and the Moon. Because for anything to exist there would have to be a creator for nothing exist on it’s own. Bible says that God created the heavens and the Earth in 7 days and yes including the animals and the trees etc. and he was pleased and then he created man from the dust. I hope the day would come that people would stop confusing people with their own beliefs especially when it comes to the Bible. it is writing so it should be for what was writing in the holy scrolls and translate by the original Greek Scholars into english well over 2000 years ago. And for the professor the original language of world was Greek, until the tower of Bable. So to end this i say God did in fact created the earth and all that is in it and around it.
Of course you are presuming that existence requires a creator.
My cat has a mom and a dad, but I can’t say that divine intervention (i.e. a creator) was there when the baby fur-ball popped out. If the universe came on with a big bang with planets and such to follow, why presume a creator instead of a mechanical universe?
Of course if you believe in a 6000 year old created earth, then you believe in all of the following:
1) that existence requires a creator,
2) that a creator exists (but who created that creator, and don’t go off-side your presumption that existence requires a creator. Beware of needing an endless chain of creators, or else throw out the first premise and your argument with it), and
3) the tooth fairy (sorry, couldn’t resist).
"…nothing exist on it’s own." Yup, there’s an argument that boldly assumes its own conclusion. Of course, if you have a hard time spelling the phrase, you’ll probably have a hard time recognizing the logical fallacy.
" translate by the original Greek Scholars into english well over 2000 years ago." Ummm… wouldn’t they be speaking, ummmm… Greek??? Seriously though, Old English was cooked up about 1500 years ago, and that radically changed after the Norman Conquest in 1066, so whatever they were translating "well over 2000 years ago", it wasn’t into what we would call English. Education is a wonderful thing…
As long as you are not doing the navigating, it doesn’t really matter if you think the earth is flat.
PS – What about the dinosaurs? Genesis doesn’t say much about them. You’d think a T-Rex hunting warm meat in the Garden of Eden would have got a mention in there somewhere…
"translate by the original Greek Scholars into english well over 2000 years ago."
Ha ha written english existed 2000 years ago, classic
What created planets? it’s called gravity, throw an apple in the air if you don’t believe it exists, if it comes back down your wrong.
Personally I would rather be in hell with Gandhi and Buddha, than in heaven with you and Fred Phelps (of the Westboro Baptist Church)( that would be my idea of hell)
Greek the original language of the earth, LOL where did you get this guy?
Learn a bit of history, maybe even learn a bit about the Nicene Creed.