Ministers defend donations
(CNS): The association representing local church ministers has defended its receipt of $50,000 from the premier’s controversial fund but has also recommended that local churches should be open and transparent about how they have used the public cash. The Cayman Ministers Association said that it received its donation from the Nation Building Fund in April last year and the money was used for the Miles Ahead (Do Something Cayman) campaign of 2010. The pastors’ group also stated that they believed the donation was made to it legitimately and that it is common practice for governments in Christian countries to support churches.
“The CMA wishes to point out that in the view of its members it is appropriate in general for the Church or any of the Church's agencies to receive funds from legitimate sources, and many of its members, though perhaps not all, would include the government as such a source,” the organisation said in a statement published on its website. “It is a common and natural practice for governments of countries in which Christian values are recognised to provide some financial assistance as well as moral support for the Church in those countries for its ongoing mission.”
However, the ministers pointed out that the churches and other agencies should be careful not to allow that support “to compromise either a Godly and healthy political independence, or the critical, prayerful and prophetic interaction with governments.”
The church body also said that from an ethical standpoint the membership should maintain an appropriate transparency in financial affairs, including money received from the Nation Building Fund.
The statement came in the wake of considerable criticism across the community about the money that was being handed out under the premier’s nation building programme without full transparency. Following a freedom of information request made by CNS, the number of churches and the amounts they had receive was placed into the public domain.
The details of the grants made under the NBF revealed considerable disparity between the various donations made to the different churches. It is not clear, however, what the criteria is for the grants and how some churches managed to receive more than$1.3 million, including the Wesleyan Holiness Church in West Bay where the premier attends, while others received nothing at all.
The Nation Building Fund is a new budgetary item introduced by the premier and managed in the Ministry of Finance. So far, since it started in the 2009/10 financial year, more than $10 million has been appropriated from public cash and the money is given to what the premier defines as anything that contributes to nation building.
The money has been used for a diverse list of projects and programmes, from paying rangers to patrol Barkers Reserve in West Bay or paying off bad debt claims to just causes, such as the Pines Retirement Home, as well as churches and scholarships for students that can’t qualify through the normal education department criteria.
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Category: Politics
I am reply to response made to 22:02 which states " I am sorry to say that I do not belive a word you have said, especially your heading "poor us Caymanians Born an bred. I am a Caymanian, and the contents of your comments are not one bit Caymanian"
Well let me respond to you – I am sorry for you if you think for a moment that I am not naturally born and bred Caymanian. And let me finish your shocks by letting you know I was once a UDP member . Thirdly, I am a christian most of my life, and I had never in all my years of christian living every believe that the GOSPEL would have been so compromised as it has recently been proven. This is a serious matter – and until we separate Church from State – our country will never prosper. Romans 12 v 9 " LET LOVE BE WITHOUT DISSIMULATION. ABHOR THAT WHICH IS EVIL, CLEVE TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD"
Again I say, if the church gets in financial need it is the responsibility of it members to bail her out. if the members saw a need to approach the government, then I would expect that the government would assist, and at the same time the Church should be accountable to the government and its members for where and what the money was spend for. As Mr.McField asked a bench of jurers recently "USE YOUR GOOD OL CAYMANIAN COMMON SENSE"
I am a Caymanian, born here – live here and is staying , my mother and all her family , with the exception of one of my great grand fathers which was scottish, are all full bred caymanians, my father was born in Honduras, but his mother andfather are bred caymanians.
How dare you tell me I am not a Caymanian – Caymanian – or not Caymanian –Christian or not Christian – we are a people that are hurting — and its time thise nonsense stop!!!!!!!!!
You know I love how you people talk about seperating Church and State.
First off I am all for it.
Second off the concept of church and state comes from the old colonial times and even before then where the church essentailly ran the country.
The church in Cayman is not in that situation. The church does not run Cayman especially in recent times where they are attacked so often with lesser support. The advances in media in particular has led to more individuals expressing their veiws about the church on a more open market. Hence people that did not support the church now realize that there are others like themselves and so they become brave to speak up.
The church however does recieve favorable treatment from politicians and the Government.
In years gone by the concepts of fighting drug use and other forms of crime were left to the church's youth programs not Government and certainly not the private sector. So in that regards the church's have player their part.
Does this equate out to the large sums of money being given to them especially in these rough financial times. NO.
I certainly agree with you in your defense of my wording of " seperating Church and State" it should had read " seperate the Gospel from votes. God Bless the Cayman Islands
Only the Clergy of Judas Iscariot would make a statement like that. It seems to me that 40 pieces of silver works no matter what century we are in. Father forgive them for they know not what they do and please have murcy on their souls.
give it back
Praise the Lord, where do I apply for theFree Money ???????/
I guess that is the nearest you will come to criticising McKeeva. Even when he is clearly in the wrong you can bring yourself to say it.
You can trash McKeeva all you want and usually do but if you wanted to name 1 person in the Cayman Islands who understands the soul of this society and exactly how it works you couldn't find anyone who is better than McKeeva.
Paying off the ministers is brilliant , admit it. McKeeva is hands down the best at "working" this society.
well, I don't like it, but you're right.
The denial and dishonesty within the ministers association and by extension throughout the society at large helps to make McKeeva successful at having his way.
Deep down everyone wants something for nothing here.
The ones that sound the most naive are those who suggest that the money be given back.
Until the blinders of denial are lifted from the society and people learn to take responsiblity for themselves the successful tactics perfected by McKeeva will be copied by others and will continue out into the future.
The worst case senario would be Independance as suggested by Ezzard where there would be no restraint from outside forces. At least now there are some financial guidelines for the government to observe.
As an expat I intentionally offer no opinion rather just my observations.
Oh Dear…
It looks likewe have our very own Watergate.. umm I mean Churchgate.
We could actually put a real gate in that new Heritage Park and call it 'Churchgate' and a warning that anyone who passes through the gate every Sunday while taking the peoples money are guaranteed a special spot at the right hand of Lucifer himself.
That would be a nice tourist attraction.
There are some very good ministers out there and we should not judge them all by the actions of a few. Surely their sins will find them out.
As my granny used to say, when you throw stone into pig pen, the one that squeals the most……… There is a lot of protesting and indignation over a simple request for full accounting of the disbursement of public funds. In a time when there is a heavy debt on the country, when individuals and businesses are tightening their belts and taking pay cuts (or in some cases going out of business), while at the same time dealing with increased increased costs of living, duty, fuel tax, business licenses, permits, etc, here is money being given away to some of the wealthiest organizations in the world – the church. The church, who in most cases, are already getting a 10th of their flock's income and yet still looking for more handouts. As for those church leaders who live in grand style and whose congregations give a 10th of their income (if not more) to fund church activities, shame on you for accepting money this way. Even though you may have intended to use it for some good, the lack of transparency and due process in how it was given, the fact that there was no equal opportunity offered to other churches across the island to apply for some of the funds, etc, even a 2-year old would realize that it does not look good, to say the least. What did Jesus do when he found those using his Father's temple for commercial or personal gain? He whipped them, turned over their tables and ran them out of his Father's place of worship. Think on these things – they are found in the same Bible that you preach from, and learn from it.
And the "Church" (Vatican) also "defended" the Sexual Abuse of young boys for decades. And spent money given by it's worshippers (sometimes the same victims and their families offerings) to move it's Priests around and pay it's lawyers for such "defence"!
This may seem a strong comparision but it is simply to make clear the factthat "the Church" is NOT immune from wrongdoings.
Therefore it does not hold much, if any water, that the CMA "defends" their recieving our money without our permission!
It'll be far more meaningful to hear from the Auditor General!
If you were true men of god you would have nothing to defend.
BECAUSE YOU WOULD NOT ACCEPT IT! (yes I am shouting)
Can you spell HYPOCRITE
People in Cayman have very short memories….was not this Cayman Ministers Association the very same religious organization that backed-up the UDP and McKeeva Bush in the Constitutional negotiations and supported Bush's campaign against a Bill of Rights in the Constitution ?
Were thay not one of the NGOs that took part and influenced the negotiations.?
This pay-out is not only for future political support…it is for political support already rendered that has Bush in power today !
This CMA and the UDP political party are tied at the hip!
Talk about a XXXX unholy union of church and state !
To all the Churches & Pastors who received money in this kind of give-a-way, I would like to ask you, how do you feel?, honestly about taking money in this manner, when knowing that the cs had to take a paycut, and the schools that are not finished for our children are left undone, people are losing their jobs and homes with young kids to feed and support. Do you know what happened to the young rich man?, he made money the root of all evil rule his heart, instead of giving it to the most unfortunate. I hope I never hear any of you preach on this parable. I thank God for my Pastor, a true man of God, who turned down the give-a-way money, and suggessted it go to a more needy cause.
Instead of finishing the schools which were designated as hurricane shelters, the people of Bodden Town could use them. So I just want to say to all the Pastors that took this money in the way it was given, shame on you and your congretations, I hope you can sleep well at night, and please make sure you pray before you close your eyes. Remember God don't like ugly, and this is ugly till it stinks.
There is a REASON that government shold NOT be involved with giving public funds to the church. In ANY country. This is only done in the most corrupt and third world countries.
This is clearly Mac's election/vote buying fund. Pure and simple.
You CANNOT be impartial to someone that has steered millions of dollars your way. There is no possible way.
Caymanians, God fearing people, please stay to the word of God, and find Grace in Gods eyes. These are the perilous time the bible spoke of that would be a tribulation unto his people, those that love hi, I say Churches unite, It is time to stand tall because there will only be Gods Church and all who love and serve him truly will enter in. So take heed and pray.
oh please…
Give it back, it wasn't macs money to hand out to buy votes
cma: ask youselves…what would jesus do?
people should boycott church collections this week…..
Yes I would like you all to do just that, yes please try that, and see the wrath of God.
Then you will see how prayer works
Screw that, I'm taking 25 back when the plate comes by me.
lets boycott all church raffells too
Honestly, anywhere else in the world, this would be cosidered double even triple dipping. You ask for "offerings" then you take money from the government, which is the people's money.. so your double dipping. Not to mention you dont pay duties like the rest of the country… triple?
Dont get me wrong, Im not against the church for its teachings, but this is wrong in my eyes.. I hope when I come to church on Sunday, you pastors dont expect an offering from me, Cause I've paid more than my 10% for a life time for me and my family.
In regards to this: “It is a common and natural practice for governments of countries in which Christian values are recognised to provide some financial assistance as well as moral support for the Church in those countries for its ongoing mission.” ***I would like for them to define the word "some" cause hundreds of thousands isnt "some". If the government officials want to help the church, they should give 10% of their own over inflated salaries to the church and not ours.
Here is another concern: "The pastors’ group also stated that they believed the donation was made to it legitimately and that it is common practice for governments in Christian countries to support churches" – *** So wouldnt the right thing to do is ask why you are actually getting this "donation". So you are implying then that if someone who sells drugs and takes that money and donates it to your church, as long as it is in good will, it will be accepted? Twisted muched?
Ill tell you this, you churches and politians might not have to answer to me or any of the people who contribute to putting you in power, but you will have to answer to God one day.. lets see if you all can buy your way into heaven.
Sick of all this corruption.
Dear Reverend, public funds are for public spending, payroll, infrasructure and paying down debt. Our taxes have been increased to facilitate budget shortfalls and debt payment. Regardless of the name put on these monies being given away, the Churches were not justified in accepting these funds. We the people paid our taxes to governemt, not for supporting Churches. Any Church or other authority should be self-sustaining and not reliant on public funding especially without the public's permissiion. The Premier is the head of finance and is irresponsible in managing this country's economy as this NationBuilding fiasco demonstrates.
Sykes didn’t have any credibility to start with.
I have four caymanian sons and two grand children and am curious if this qualifies me to request funds from the nation building fund since we are out numbered.
Not really!
That just qualifies them to get a job, make an honest living, raise respectable children and make sure their parents are well taken care of.
And vote for good politicians.
However, the ministers pointed out that the churches and other agencies should be careful not to allow that support “to compromise either a Godly and healthy political independence, or the critical, prayerful and prophetic interaction with governments.”
Heee heeee haaaaa haaaaa oooh boy I think I might hurt myself…..oooouch….my ribs…..political…oooohhh independence ooh boy….
Sry. It's just too funny…..I don't think there will ever be a day when our pastors stay in their churchs and simply preech the word of God.
I miss my pastor. He was a man a real man. What I see today are shell of men. A church has become more a business than anything else today.
What they need to do is to stay off committees and stay in their churchs.
Maybe they are also partially to blame for what is happening here in Cayman. What do you think your followers think when they see you smoozing up to politicians? Do you think they believe it is the work of God you are doing? When they loose faith in you where will that trust go?
GIVE UNTO CESAR WHAT IS CESARS…..
Jesus came for our souls not our wallets.
Leave money alone. It is the ruination of all that is good in this country. Just step back and take a look at our politicians.
I am suprised that we had to cut civil servants pay yet we give the church McKeeva attends over a million dollars and they are sitting quietly as all this unfolds.
I think the board members of these churches should be transparent and tell us under what grounds that these funds were given and what they have or will be spent on. Was this payment for a ticket for McKeeva to get to heaven? I hear him constantly reminding us of him being a good christian and his baptism but it is my opinion that the only difference at his baptism was that he went down a dry sinner and came up a wet one and to all those wolves in sheep clothing in his church who are defending him please remember that by me sleeping in a garage makes me no more a car than you going to church makes you all christians.
Great comment, Anonymous 8:53! I agree with you that there should be an accounting of the money. Where did it go? Who really benefitted? Will the disposition of the "gifts" ever be made public? Sure…… when pigs fly!
CI$1.3mln is a staggering amount for any church, anywhere in the world. Are they building a Basilica gilded in gold leaf?
Apparently they're building a nation.
Politics,Religion and Greed, what an island cocktail!
Pastor: I thought you couldnt take your riches to heaven? ! Suppose they revised the bible again huh or wait im sorry it went to the "building fund' o and yeah nice watch..uggh makes me sick to my stomach the hypocracy you reckless people practice.
Mackeeva: Why am i not surprised your buying votes again.
Find something more useful to do with the Isalnds budget! The church already has enough help.
Oh please….these ppl are the ones with the most crooked minds…they just hide behind the church. I wonder what percentage of unemployed, suffering persons these churches have provided aid 0%!!! No thank you….I'll praise God from home.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, one can be 99.99% sure it is a duck!
We can thank the ministers for the decline in true Christianity here in Cayman. By not denouncing this move on the part of the Premier they are as XXXX as he is.
A church that openly speaks against this action and returns monies received will most likely see an increase in membership. I will not attend a church that was on Mac's payroll. Nor should any one who calls themselves a true believer.
Our "leader " continues this mockery of the Cayman people and the Churches are backing him up.
A sad tiime for Cayman.
A christian country ? I thought there was freedom of religion here. . . .
Christian values ? You mean like iran,irak, afghanistan ?
Money and political power are the only values in this country ! !
It is commen practice in my Christian country to imprison anyone in power who uses the peoples money in such a manner and to implicate those who recieved the money. But we are not a third world country.
Yes, I am sure that some of the funds given to the churches will be well spent on good causes that help the wider community. Unfortunately, some of the funds will also be spent on possibly non-arms length real estate deals and evangelical recruitment programs (aka increased market share…churches are just another business from that perspective).
We, the great unwashed tax payers, will never know how the funds are allocated or spent. There is no financial transparency in anything the government does. The lack of auditable financial records speaks volumes.
The churces, it seems, cannot fleece their own flocks for enough money to keep themselves afloat; therefore it appears that they have gotten into the vote selling business to supplement their gambling business (oops, sorry, gambling is immoral, I meant to say bingo and raffle business). Vote sales, it seems, are brisk these days.
Dear Minister's Association:
Two points:
1. A press release on 14 May (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cayman-premier-mckeeva-bush-hails-do-something-world-campaign-93809144.html) reports: “The premier of the Cayman Islands, the Honourable McKeeva Bush says the local government "just cannot pay" for the kind of goodwill shared by the California-based Miles Ahead and local organizations resulting from a major humanitarian visit to Grand Cayman.” (As with everything else, the Premier says one thing and does the reverse). And yet, you still accepted the money knowing the country couldn’t afford it?
"The pastors said it was common practice in christian countries for governments to give money to churches". Could someone please provide examples of this?
My thoughts exactly.! (And I'm from a Cristian country.. I think?)
That is a "fact" that Mr. Bush pulled out of his backside.
CMA claim, “It is a common and natural practice for governments of countries in which Christian values are recognised to provide some financial assistance as well as moral support for the Church in those countries for its ongoing mission.”
Why not name some of the countries involved? Give us a few examples of how much is being spent and how the money is being allocated for comparison.
It's vague, unsubstantiated claims like this that cause the public to question the motivation behind these payments.
CNS,
Here is a question you should ask.
Cayman Prep School is the school which up until Dart opened their school, had the financial support of the Cayman Islands upper crust (including the majority of our expat millionaires and who's who).
Find out how much they are paying for their school on Smith Road. I have always heard it was on a peppercorn lease. Now talk about sweetheart deals. This was done as far back as Truman being in Government and has been maintained ever since.
The school of the Rich and Well to Do, getting subsidized by you and me tax payer for many years while other schools struggle.
But who is complaining right? That's fair. Are all the expat accountants and lawyers who's children's school is getting a free ride from the Government going to be partial to the Government for giving them a big break on their capital costs?
Cayman Prep School's student body is, and always was, 50% Caymanian Members of the church are given first admission, not the sons and daughters of the "rich and well-to-do". Subsidies given to the school have historically been given because it is more cost effective for the government to assist private schools than to provide a public education for the Caymanian students enrolled there.
1) Would the CNS, or anybody, please perform a simple study, count the number of churches, count the number of people per church, take the sum and divide by 60,000. If the percentage turns out to be more than 50%, then we can say that Cayman is a Christian Nation. Even though this point is entirely irrelevant to the practice of spending public funds to benefit private institutions that require you submit to their beliefs, I have a hunch the churches are simply self promoting a myth to sustain their stake of public funds that could be used for other public educational institutions to create real industries and jobs.
2) A government source, that serves all the PUBLIC, is not a legitimate source for a Church that has a PRIVATE agenda, or a "Mission”. The fact that some churches received more funds than others just compounds the realization that government is rewarding people for their religious beliefs, which is irrelevant to what people have contributed to society. This disincentives people from generating new ideas, since who would want to be discredited based upon your belief system rather than rewarded for the substance of your ideas.
3) What about results? Did the money accomplish the church's projects and “Mission" with verifiable results? In addition to the government soliciting the votes of church members by using public funds, it also sounds like a way for churches to fund an increase in their capacity(congregation) and fatten their wallets, by at least 10%, all under the guise of a higher power. Can you imagine being stuck in a church during a hurricane, where at your weakest you would be a target for an easy conversion. In the end all the churches have to do is rationalize their extra cash flows as a blessing from their claimed almighty. With the intent to provide goodwill to their community, but without any proven results except possibly an abstract submission of your soul, what the churches are really doing is providing irreparable damage to Cayman's future and educational system, by stealing from public institutions that offer public services, regardless of your religion. I wonder how many classes, scholarships (earned) and exposure to innovative educational projects have been indirectly stolen from those struggling to better themselves by develop progressive job related skills.
But I thought 'Miles Ahead' was supposed to be "doing something" *for* Cayman. Wow! Looks like we did it ourselves; a whole $50K worth. Had I known then what I know now…Talk about wolf in sheep's clothing.
A natural practice for governments in many countries to give money to churches.
Name us a few! Not the US! They have a constitution that prohibits this! They want the church and state to stay away from each other, for good reasons. You can't give the peoples money to Religious Groups. Especially when there's no accountability;
You never asked for it? What kind of statement is that coming from [I assume a member of the CMA. What if it was stolen?
Whilst I understand the CMA view, I still feel Government was not projectivey thinking with the hand-outs. Essentially Mr. Bush is portraying unless you follow Christianity Government doesn't recognize your religion. All fair and well if you're a free enterprize empowering your beliefs to those who want to listen, but not from Govt. who represents all the people, – bordering on discrimination and far too murky for a Countries Government to be dabbling in especially without credence from other parties.
cma…scam the public every week…now they move onto the government……
cms knows nothing of christianity…..
Did the Jehovah's Witness Church get any money?
oh lawd, me cant take dem knockin and walkin on me grass piece…. me cant dive in water… me cow and me always safe!!!!
Poor us Caymanians born and bred: See what we come to.
While the CMA has said the funds were used to Miles Ahead (Do Something Cayman) campaign of 2010, it would be shocking to see how dollar to dollar were spent. Since they have done nothing wrong , and I agree, they never stole it or asked for it, I guess we can say " Zaccheaus come down for today I dine with thee" I wonder why he ran up in the tree when Jesus was passing by. Be careful ministers – the same might just be done to you…..As much as the bible tell us to give1/10 of our earnings – you make it hard for a l lot us..Because McKeva cut our pay and give it to you. You are as guilty as he is — you are aware the fate of all Civil Servants and Statutory Bodies employees – we are almost starving – and you got the gall to accept our hard earned deprived cash to do what you feel like doing with it. YOU SHOULD HAD QUESTION THE PREMIER'S ACTION IN THIS – WHATS THE VERDICT? GUILTY.
Civil Servants and Statutory Bodies employees children are being deprived and enduring every hardship while you can sit back and handout they money. Shame on you – you are nothing but a DISGRASCE TO THE GOSPEL.
22:02 I am sorry to say that I do not belive a word you have said, especially your heading "poor us Caymanians Born an bred. I am a Caymanian, and the contents of your comments are not one bit Caymanian. No matter what is said about CAYMANIANS, and they may be a apart of alot of wrong doing, but they are not going to critize the church.
People like me have been listening to persons having bad things to say about the churches receiving money from the government, and all those I hear talking wasnot one CAYMANIAN.
Just think of it what is a better place for giving money than the church. Do you people reazize that the Churches is the ones helping the government. Imagine if it was,nt any churches at all how Lawless Cayman would be. Do you think the Police could control the crowd. No they could not. I would be very ashamed if I hear Caymanians critizing the churches, but I know Caymanians better than that. So to all the others who are always fanning fire, and writing in a way as if Caymnanians are commenting. I say give us a break
And to my Caymanians I say support your churches, and find one this Saturday or Sunday to attend along with your children. I am sure you will be blesed.
OOHhhhhhhhm If the Churches were helping the Government, we would not have so many crimes. With the amount of churches that has been formed in the Cayman Islands over the last 20 years compared to the 55,000 including paper caymanians and 2003 status grant,we should all be christians and free of crime.That goes to show that the Churches are run like the Government — too much favouritism going on between her walls.
CNS: "However the ministers pointed out that the churches and other agencies should be careful not to allow that support 'to compromise either a Godly and healthy political independence, or the critical, prayerful and prophetic interaction with governments.'" But my question is, how can they not compromise? Someone gives you money over thousands of dollars, and you are telling me that you would not support that person if he asked for financial support for his political campaign? That is hard to believe. Who are you fooling?
What is most interesting and what is indeed an insight into some people's integrity including certain talk show hosts is that they believe that if an organization receives funding, even thousands of dollars they are automatically going to compromise their principles.
This money was not a gift. This money was not used for personal use. There were tangible programmes, activities, and facilities which this money was used for. Money has always been given from time to time by successive Governments.
I agree not as much in such a short period of time. But pulpits aren't used for campaigns and I have NEVER heard my Pastor in the donkey years I have attended church tell anyone who to vote for or who not to vote for. In fact I have not heard any legit pastor in these islands do that so lets call a spade a spade.
Because a Church gets funding it does not mean they are going to compromise.
When a student gets a scholarship- or when any other organization gets a grant from Government (that is thousands of dollars) does that mean they are automatically going to compromise?
Let's not be so quick to judge.
In this case there should be no objection to an inquiry.
Not only on the financial part of it, but these ministers (experts of making excuses and diverse interpretations) will speak flowery words about the Premier from here on end. They will "bless" the premier and have their members follow him. I wonder if there has been an FOI request to list all the church' ministers that have received public funds from the government? I would really like to know.
Bush is gonna whack us – CNS won't print this – but we are doomed under him – and the whack-a-molie ministers are right there on board.