Dart and CIG still talking
(CNS): The new government remains locked in talks with the islands’ biggest developer several weeks after Planning Minister Kurt Tibbetts said he hoped to be able to release information to the public about the state of the controversial negotiations. In a short response to CNS questions about the state of the talks with the Dart Group, Cayman officials indicated Monday that until there was some agreement between the two parties, there was little that the administration was able to say. The PPM government has made it clear it has concerns about the lack of a through route now that a section of the West Bay Road has been closed, and that it could not accept the 50% tax gift contained in the agreement signed in December 2011.
Tibbetts told the party’s national council in early August that he would have news shortly about the talks. He also said that the part of the agreement which gives Dart a rebate on all accommodation taxes for ten years on properties it already owns, acquires or renovates for the next three decades was unacceptable. But more than a month later there is still no indication of where the talks are following the break-down just ahead of the elections in May.
“Discussions between government and Dart are ongoing and there is an understanding that until discussions are at a mutually satisfactory point, there is little more that can be said publicly at this juncture,” the premier’s press secretary stated on Monday. “Government and Dart want the best outcome for the people of the Cayman Islands and are working toward that end,” the official added.
While the second phase of the Esterley Tibbetts Highway officially opened on Monday and work continues on the proposed new resort on the site of the former Courtyard Marriott, the details of the ongoing negotiations and whether or not the government will be able to re-balance the deal with better value for the public purse remains unclear.
The PPM government has made it a campaign promise to revisit the deal and that it would not agree to the relocation of the landfill, which was the second part of the overall proposed investment plan known as the ForCayman Investment Alliance. While, Osbourne Bodden, the minister with responsibility for the landfill, has made it clear the dump must be addressed on site, in its recent report on its first 99 days in office the PPM administration said it had entered into discussions with Dart about Grand Cayman’s ever growing dump and the best solutions for waste management at the existing site.
Category: Politics
The only law Cayman leadership follows is the code: Take all you can and give nothing back. Now everything should make sense.
Give Dart his road, NRA signed the deal and this is a done deal.
What is all this fuss about a better road and island in return, give him the dump and sewage system while you are at it would be a lot better.
The sooner Dart controls the entire island the better, government is unable to operate the new Cayman as it does not have the money, expertise most definitely but the money NO, Dart has most of it and is willing to share it with us why not let him. The financial industry has just as much and don't do half as much as Dart. I just wish that he would open a local bank, insurance company, law firm, accounting company, college/university, hardware store, cable, power and phone company. Dart is the only entity that brings real competition with class to Cayman. I just wish that he would own every business in Cayman or one like it to bring real progress.
Maybe you could just hire the services of a domatrix
The UDP made a deal and we have to stick with it (or renegotiate if Dart will allow.) We cannot change signed Govt deals with each new administration. That is why a fair and non-corrupt government is so important.
Mac sold us out time & time again and you would have to have your head in the sand not to know that he also ran with some questionable deals overseas too.
As a Caymanian, I rarely agree with most of the posters here, but I think the PPM will have a hard time contractually backing out of an agreeement and it would be devastating to Cayman.
Do we need to honor the Stan Thomas deal. Just curious
Stan Thomas went bankrupt, and left us with a derilict hotel on SMB since 2008. Thankfully Dart is redeveloping this land.
Thankfully for mr dart. Whoever he is.
You mean planning permission to rezone his land hotel/resort? Of course. There is no reason not to. Other than that, the government didn't make any "deals" with Stan Thomas.
I guess I'm referring to that'thing' where the Caymanian representative that mr Dart cut his road deal with, faxed an invoice to Mr Thomas for a 'zoning approval'. You may continue now to be willfully ignorant. Do carry on sir.
I think you need to understand that rezoning would have happened in the normal run of things, but apparently this one was delayed for a number of months but suddenly granted after sums of money were received by said govt.rep.
In Insolvency work, there are things called "Transactions at an Undevalue", but, as this is not an insolvency, what would be the equivalent in this case?
They would be relying upon the principle of "made up law to suit what I would like" which is quite commonly the basis for legal arguments suggested on CNS.
Try Fraudulent disposition
12.14 name one other country that would take Dart in and give him everything he wished for? No other country would have done what the UDP administration did for this guy. Crown land is the property of the people not the government that is control. This is what has divided this country and it will continue until fair value is provided in return.
Turks and Caicos, BVI, Aruba…just warming up..
So let him, whoever he is, go.
Then why hasnt he gone there? Is it because Cayman is the better place? If so, that means we have something to bargain with dont we…
If you read the news you will see that he is indeed going to some fo these places (Turks and Caicos for example.)
Bet he will not last longer than a snowball in the summer in TCI if he expects to get the same of what he is getting here. Many tried it there and ran back to good ole Cayman in no time I will bet TCI and its people have not changed if anything they have gotten wiser and a lot harder.
Bet he will not last longer than a snowball in the summer in TCI if he expects to get the same of what he is getting here. Many tried it there and ran back to good ole Cayman in no time I will bet TCI and its people have not changed if anything they have gotten wiser and a lot harder.
TCI and maybe Aruba but most certainly not BVI. Don't need him got Sir Richard Branson a man who gets special invites to the Royal Palace and is down to earth…. One reason why BVI should want what you depend on when they have more than enough of a true class act. I will say for the BVI's no thanks Dart is better for Cayman.
"Invites to the Royal Palace" 13:17???? Ferkin Jesus, SIR Jimmy Saville got those when he was fingering young kids in his spare time! Are you some sort of royal worshipper? I thought they were dead and gone long time.
I can see you are green with envy by not being British if you have not notice Cayman and Real Caymanians are all descendants of people from the UK and love, love our Queen and the Royal Family. God save the Queen, long to reign over us.
Check out what Argentina is doing. They are sueing Dart for meddling in their politics among other thiings.
Argentina??? Seriously???? You are using them as an example of anything involving finance, investment and probity???
And dont forget Belize
In Argentina they are doing many crazy thing lately because there economy is in a really bad state…dollar controls, really bad corruption, anything to deflect the attention on the nation from government…they did the same before when they invaded the Falkland Islands..and htey have not learned the lesson…dealing with the issue, however painful in the short term is the only way..
….and that makes okay for Dart to go in there and boondoggle them ?? Riiiight.
You are wrong. US states, Canadian provinces, all of the Windward and Leeward Islands, Puerto Rico, Bahamas, Turks and Caicos (for sure), Dominican Republic, Belize, to name a few. They would all be delighted to have his investment and would happily grant tax relief to get it.
Ha! would love to know where you are getting your information from.. No one wants dart, not even Jamaica as what he learnt a while back when dealing with the government. So if they as currupted as they are are avoiding him, why do we have open arms to this company. Bunch of sell outs we are.. UDP, PPM different colours, all the same
By your comments of the UDP and PPM being the same, I can only assume you will be organizing a new political party to challenge these, and say becoming actively involved in bringing positive change to your home- or you will choose to continue griping on a news forum as your only form of participation?
Be the change you want to see in Cayman. Lead. Follow. Or get out of the way.
Muppet- your understanding of whom wants what in international business and on what terms is worse than your understanding of countries. Jamaica did not want him? More like he was not prepared to pay the necessary bribe…
I think sir, you are just saying stuff
Yeah, I think the USA would LOVE to grant him tax exemptions, butt talker.
Didn't say the US, said US states. They give income, sales and property tax relief for new developments all the time. Plus new free roads when necessary. Fact.
Pretty much any developed country would because its good business. Unfortunately it changes a third world country into one in which the locals must now have a current education to compete. Bummer for you. Great for everyone else including your kids.
and thank god for immigration not having anything to do with it right?!
the truth is that the business community is under economic pressure. and for those who care or have an opinion contrary to the dart(large investor) alliance scheme , it means you are concenrned of the deals being negotiated away from publics eye, as seen in the case with our first premier. we are appalled not only of our govt but with dart for cooperating in deals of this nature. or it might be in the deal itself. concessions offerred to dart are unprecentred and ideally would assist in areas as you outlined-the education or development of skill in locals outside the income parameters our new society is demanding. and what of the remaining business community, do they not deserve oppurtunites?
the notion of leaving a generation behind is primitive and contradicts civilization, dont you think? where do you think they really go-just because you close your eyes, dosnt mean the problem is solved.
One of the best comments ever. Too bad the everyday loons will be completely clueless as to what you are saying. They do like to turn blind and pretend everything is solved that way. Pure ignorance and laziness on their part.
Actually its the property of the Crown, the people only have right of access.
It seems (I hope) that government and Dart are acting responsibly in these negotiations. I hope Dart can accept that a reduction in the Hotel Tax cannot be justified and was an error on the previous administrations part as it created an unbalanced playing field.
However CIG need to be cautious too and not overplay its hand…plenty of other countries would welcome Dart investment, when it is here that needs it. Dart leaving would deter all investors..
Dart leaving would be the best thing we could hope for.
15.17-spoken like a true international statesman and businessmen.
I suspect if Dart left pretty much everyone else with investment here would follow, as it would be an indication that you cannot deal with Cayman government, even though they were elected by Caymanians. No-one will deal with any government that reneges on any deal. If you do not like it, I suggest you go sue your previous premier for any loss you feel Cayman may have suffered. He signed it on behalf of you, the people who elected him.
Foolishness. Its people like you who try this scare tactic that sickens me.
If Dart leaves, then he leaves. Do you think people, companies are here because of the government and the weather? Do you think that they see dart here and then say OH..lets move to the cayman islands because he is here?
They are here for the tax break, nothing less, nothing more. The little money that they pump into the island, is nothing compared to what they would be paying in taxes if they were held accountable. Lets not go into the speculation that you could buy your own politician here at one point.
If they move because Dart move, its because they can not get away with skimming off the top anymore and all the freebies are gone. If the government was proven to be legit and gave away nothing, many companies would still be here because of the tax break.FACT
So stop the rubbish comments. If cayman didnt have anything to offer, the island wouldnt be filled with expats and offshore companies and many of you wouldnt be crying over staying here to get your PR in order.
When talking about foolishness I recommend that you read your post as that pretty much sums up how foolish and uneducated a comment can be.
Of course people and companies choose to do buisness in Cayman becuase of the level of professionalism and the financial advantages of doing so. Don't forget money is very easily moved to other jurisdictions in a matter of minutes.
Cayman has for the past few years started to think of itself as undefeatable and unequalled. Cost of doing business here has risen to the point now where we are seeing companies choosing to register in the other less costly jurisdications. Once this flow establishes itself and the legal professionals (expats) go where the money is you will find that Cayman will very quickly become a second tier jurisdication and we will have to lower rates dramatically to try and entice them back. Problem is the damage has already been done.
Without any tourist indurstry or manufacturing industry to support our people the joblessness willquickly increasae and with it the anti-expat sentiment will along with it – because its their fault for leaving us in it. This is self perpetuating and result in more strife between local and expat, resulting in further reduction in visitors and foriegn investment.
Your logic is flawed and I hope that you have a high enough eduction to get a job overseas, because there will not be jobs for you here if you adopt that policy.
So, go ahead and feel smug for now.
Do you people ever think about ANYTHING else besides money?!
Of course silly, its the Caribbean, women, wum and weed:)
ah, true dat
Dart and all the expats. Then once again you would be the smartest and hardest working people on the island. But still the poorest.
Gee I would bet my bottom dollar that if Dart and all the expats should leave today and we remain British the Cayman Islands would continue on as they did maybe with less material goods but more values and less expenditures. We did it before and no one died from starvation, thirst, lack of shelter, healthcare or unsanitary conditions. Yes go ahead and take all of them with you and see how many Caymanians will die due to the departure.
are you crazy????….if we did not have his $800,000,000 that he pumped in over the last 7 years where would you be??? probably in Northward for trying to steal some lunch!!!
That is a rude and misinformed statement. Apologize and realize you are the one that may have ended up in northward. Try to be a little civilized. No country has every collapsed just because some money growing ghost decided to move on. Jeez, this site is turning t into a junior high writing class
Prior to Dart's arrival to these shores in the mid 1990's Cayman and Real Caymanians had a standard of living second to none in the world and envied by people like you.
"Cayman and Real Caymanians"!! What a joke. You could not invent this retarded nonsense up! You gotta see it on a post on CNS! And "prior to his arrival" Brainbox?? I had hear dat deh had say dat he were responsible for bringing Hurricane Ivan here…………there you go, I said it for you, Heedjut.
SO it all Dart fault the CIG is broke now and Caymanains are out of work, you people are nuts.
If memory serves right when the Government ran low on money, his money was used to pay the CS. And all the other business that he has, who would own and run those?
Does this include the government pension contributions too?
I didn't realise it was that bad.
Not so sure plenty other countries would welcome him.Plus he doesn't want to leave his sweet thing here. He's got everthing in place.
Also: who is this guy? Anybody ever seen him. It's kind of creepy
Oh yeah, creepy "The brain as a frontier is a fascination" for Ken, says Frank M. Ochberg, a Michigan psychiatrist and terrorism specialist who has worked for the Secret Service and the FBI and a regular recipient of the Dart foundation's largesse. Tom Dart says the fascination has a practical application. He claims, Ken theorized that research might make it possible to keep his brain alive after his body died
Gee willikers mr wizard! Just think of the possibilities!!
Would you show your face when so many people threaten him and vent their spleens on forums like this with little or no facts known, rather than blaming their own previous goverment if indeed there is anyhting wrong with the deal…
No sir, not I. I would hid my face from the truly frightening people of this island….. And the whole world in general. IHa ha ha
The deal was done. Unless the PPM wants to kill off future large scale inward investment, move on.
PPM doesn't want to kill off future investment they just don't know any other way. Just like UDP.
Don't be such an alarmist baby. God I'm tired of all this "he's the only thing in the world" talk. Aren't you too, really?
Who else is offering up large scale inward investment?
ezzard/arden know plenty of wealthy caymanians 'willing' to invest…….hahahahahah
Why should they when one guy has been given so many concessions and is pumping money into keeping failing businesses afloat, instead of allowing the markets to function properly? We've allowed someone to dominate a lot of our daily landscape and we still don't do anything about the monopolies being created.
Do. You. Mean. MONEY!
Not in the slightest 18:08. No one else is showing interest in this bigoted anti foreign investment place.
There is no sign of integrity when dealing with the Cayman Islands government, who would want to get into a public private partnership with them knowing that any deals or contract signed can likely be broken or backed out of by the next administration a few years later or even the current one. In this case all I see is that a deal was made with Dart to build these highways in exchange for land swaps and tax concessions so he could recover money spent. Now that Dart has done their part the government doesn’t want to live up to their part of the Deal. I really hope the outcome of this doesn’t completely destroy the reputation of Cayman as a good place to invest your money, you can also look at how they held the Ritz Hotel for ransom asking the new owners for more and more money. If any of you had something like this happen to you you’d all scream holly hell. Imagine if you went to the store and purchased a TV for $500 but when you go to pick it up you’re told that price is now $750. Or if you hand a contractor paint your house for a quoted price of $1000 and got a bill for $2000. On the other side suppose you painted someone’s house for a quoted price of $1000 and once complete they want to renegotiate the price.
The fact here remains that even if you make a bad deal you are liable to live up to your side of it or risk destroying your Reputation and credit, in this case if the PPM do not they are going to open up a Pandora’s box that may never be closed. Dart will quickly file a lawsuit against the government which they will most likely win and they can easy demand immediate payment which will most likely cost us much more then numbers like 30 Million Dollars once interest and penalties are added on. Imagine Dart with a lien on Cayman Itself all because of an emotional fight over piece of road that we all know is not actually worth hundreds of Millions of dollars and realistically had no ocean view. We all know we’re much better off with the new road although two would be great, if we can only afford one the new one is far better than the old one.
Speaking of the GT Dump the Government has been juggling this around for decades while it kept growing like a cancer on the landscape. Capping this one and having another properly built Waste Management Facility anywhere would be better than just watching this one keep growing and we all know that Dart is more likely to get it done then the government who really can’t afford it anyway so why not let Dart take responsibility for handing that heap of garbage when it will cost us Millions of Dollars that we don’t have to do it ourselves. We know Dart wants to clean it up because it’s an eyesore to Camana Bay which they have Hundreds of Millions of Dollars invested into so be rest assured they would do whatever it takes to make it something pleasing to the eyes and nose.
People let’s stop all the nonsence and think about what’s best for the future Cayman as a whole. Every choice will not make everyone happy but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Let’s focus all this energy on fighting the increasing crime wave hovering over our island and educating our children to compete in a an ever changing world. These are the two things that are most threatening to our future.
I wish I could click thumbs up 65,000 times on the above words. We are wasting previous time and money changing deals we make every time we make a deal. Our Government needs to get on with building the country not holding deals back. Learn from your mistakes and move on.. Make it back on the next deal..!
In answer to your first question: any big sh** developer looking for even more money that's who. To be honest, I did t even read beyond that first paragraph cause I got an idea it's more crapiola written from a deep well of fear.
Lets just make you happy. I hope you geteverything you want. God bless.
FEAR is the ONLY thing threatening your future.
I completely agree with this, I myself had a bad experience when I purchased a piece of land that was registered with Land and Survey to be 21000 Sq FT, I brought the land got plansfor the house completed and applied for a red card. At which point I had to get a fixed boundary survey done that turn out to show the actual size of the property was 14,500 sg ft. and all I got from Land and Survey was a sorry. So at great cost to me I had to redo the plans and build a smaller house so I basically purchased 21,000 st ft and got 14,500 thanks to the screw-ups at Land and survey and their response was there’s nothing we can do, someone made a mistake on the last survey they did.
Caymankind, bobo @ 10:39. You are supposed to be eternally grateful to be even able to be here and breathe here. God's (or at least Ezzard's ) country.
Ah Now it all makes since..
Thank You Cayman for ripping me off, it was such a pleasure to get half of what I paid for and I am greatfull that you allow me to walk your shores. Also here's full access to my bank account and life savings to do with as you please and once it's all gone I understand that I will have to leave.
Food for thought….Would you as a investeor want to do a deal with the CI gov. based on the recent events of the FCIA? I wonder what will happen if Dart stops any further development/ deals/ other funding etc. with Cayman based on how the new gov. is pulling back from a deal made with previous gov. officials? That is just bad business in my opinion…. As much as I am in favor of Uncle Dart helping the Islands economy, (love the new roads by the way), the current gov. seems to want to back away from almost every part of the FCIA that was agreed upon previously and he should help the gov. understand that it is too easy for him to take his money elsewhere, (Turks, Bahamas etc..) and leave us to fend for ourselves. Just saying…. with the way things are currently with certain cruise ships not coming to our ports anymore because of the lack of a proper docking facility i.e. we will only have 8 ships in this week, very sad for us, a huge waterfront/port front retail property (yes I know he owns it) closing its doors because of lack of visitors to the Island via ship or otherwise…I wonder just how long we will last on our own? How many more businesses will close during slow season? How many jobs will be lost to locals and expats alike that work in the tourism industry in the next 5 years? As they say people, be careful what you wish for.
Sure is a lot of chickens on this island
hmm yeah.. how many LOCALS will lose jobs again?? please enlighten us. Tell us also how Üncle" Dart has helped this country again? please tell me the investments that has been made to better Cayman again and how it is going back into Cayman economy? You people blab and have no understanding of what you are saying.
Do yourself a favor and find out how many people your uncle employes then find out the ratio of caymanians that work there. Once you do that, find out how many manage anything and how much they make.. Take a look at your local investment made by your uncle dart. Blasted Sheep
The company is just that, a company made to make money, nothing else, its not there to help anyone but the invester.. Common Sense
Hold firm PPM do not sell us out like UDP
07.13…its a done deal, has been for ages. Unless you are saying that you cannot trust Caymanians to honour a deal?
2nd grade logic
I will tell you I don't trust Dart, whoever he is.
We now have 4 lanes of hurricane resistant road instead of 2 that get washed over by the sea at every storm and we are arguing about that??….Cayman let's get real. Thank you for the new secure road to my district. I remember too well have to walk through all that sand at public beach just to get connected with George Town…
And CNS and its readers need to understand that the ((non cash) "costs" ascribed to the government of $78 million in the PWC report is mainly comprised of a $55 million 'value uplift' to Dart's adjacent properties. Since when is a value uplift of another party considered a cost of the government (if the houses in a neighborhood increase in value by 10% as a result of say, the paving of the road, since when is this value increase in the houses considered a "cost").
CNS and its readers need to understand what the conclusion in the VFM report really are. Direct quote: "If the analysis is limited to the SMB Hotel only, the incremental benefits of the NRA Agreement are estimated to be an increase in Gross Value Added (a measure of the economic benefits) of $755m when expressed in net present value terms over the lifetime of theinvestment (20 years post construction). Expressed in terms of employment effects, 1,651 man years of construction are estimated to arise and 890 FTEs during the operational phase."
PPM is dancing with wolves I hope they don't decide to bite…
22.13-agree…PPM got no teeth, it would be embarrassing for them to even try..
{the premier’s press secretary stated on Monday. “Government and Dart want the best outcome for the people of the Cayman Islands and are working toward that end,”}
Methinks the press secretary is not telling the truth. I believe Mr. Dart wants the best outcome ($$$$) for himself and I'm not too sure about the Government.
Dart wants the best for Dart! full stop. If they wanted what was best for the people FCIA never would have happened.
What we now need is the current government to look out for the people, unlike the previous one that sold out the people.
"Dart wants the best for Dart". Wow! Really? Seriously? Some of you Caymanians go on as if you are really effing brainless. He's a businessman working in a capitalist environment which Cayman has always welcomed (Jim Bodden anyone?). He earns money and the country gets something in return for that. You brainless posters think he should be giving away all his money building roads and things just because as Caymanians you are ENTITLED to these things free of charge and without him getting anything in return. I hope he pulls out and leaves you to your own stupid bankrupt devices because only then will you learn that the world does NOT repeat NOT owe you a living just because you are these "special" people (living on tiny unimportant barren islands) called Caymanians.
Don't worry they will realize it when when all their land is owned by people other than Caymanians and the world has passed them by..
..and that would make you happy?
And 11:58, who sold them all the land? Caymanians. Been going on for donkey years. Caymanians sold land that was no use to them they thought then got resentful when they realised it eventually became valuable. And it was mainly CAYMANIAN real estators who bought the land for peanuts from their own Caymanians and then resold it at massive profit to foreigners. I would name names but CNS would not print them. But we all know who they were don't we?
Some anger management counselling might be in order, 20:35 but I do see where you are coming from. As a born Caymanian in his thirties, the worst thing about your post for me was your presumption that all Caymanians hate Dart and want him out of here. I have to tell you and other posters that this is simply NOT the case. In fact there are many of us who wish there were more Darts investing here and we do NOT want him to leave. Givehim some other breaks and ask him to build the by-pass from Savannah to East End and maybe build a road across to North Side (though I suppose we will have the usual dinosaurs going on bad about the loss of the "heritage" swamp in the middle of the island).
I am an American, not a Caymanian and I find your attitude so rude I felel like calling you a horse's ass. And I might. I'm going to think about it first.
The reason people are saying that Dart is in it for himself is that people on the other side of the arguement are saying he's doing it for cayman….. Why am I even wasting my time explaining this to your bitter angry self.
I will get back to you on that horses ass thing…
I am going out to buy some scissors to cut off my reproductive organ because I don't want to raise children on an island that has people as rude, bitter and angry as you!
Good idea 15:11.
It's called humor, ladies.
That sounds like a very sound, if painful, idea to me, given the extremism of your thought processes.
While I agree with you that Dart is in it for the money, all I am hearing in this discussion is taking back the financial benifits to Dart not to the Government. So if you was Dart and you were in it for the money why talk unless it involves compensation elsewhere.
In the end this contract was signed and sealed. I dont know if legally they can get the country out of this mess.
The pricewaterhouse report found benefit to the country of some 700 million … how much more exactly do govt want? If they are trying to wring even more out of this one single deal, it makes it look like all the other supposed partnerships they have underway are nothing more than just talk. Otherwise why not just accept what got signed on this Dart deal, and start on all these other deals?
Praise the Lord! God is good.
How could the previous government agreed to this deal and we the people accepted it? Just make certain minister tibbets the dump doesn't miraculously show up in Bodden town.
If the dump "miraculously" turns up in Bodden town I will be the first on my knees giving thanks for the wisdom on the Lord.
It will, mark my words and the will say it was nothng they could becuase becuase the previous administration agreed to it, these guys all just made false promises to get into office when they all knew these were the only realistic choices. Which is why they are so quite..
For the good of the Country, lets hope so.