Diplomacy first in slavery reparations
(CNS): CARICOM’s programme manager for culture and community development has stated that the organization intends to use diplomacy before going to the courts over the issue of slavery reperaitons. Dr Hilary Brown said raising the consciousness of CARICOM nationals regarding issues related to Reparations for Native Genocide Slavery was itself important and the expected result from the submission for reparations was a development programme for the countries affected. During a recent CARICOM meeting, Dr Brown said the issue was about redress and healing to address the “legacy that has left our people behind”.
She said the hope was for engagement of CARICOM people, which should result in psychological healing and further emancipation from mental slavery. She also outlined that the approach to be taken would be a diplomatic one involving engagement of the Europeans before taking the matter to the level of an international court of justice.
Caribbean leaders are scheduled to meet in Antigua early next month to examine and approve the draft document on which the claim for reparations will be made to European nations for the TransAtlantic slave trade. The draft will not be released before leaders approve it but according to regional media reports the document makes out a case for compensation “for the lasting effects of slavery on the Caribbean population”, including poor diet, inhumane working conditions, brutality and other stressful conditions that have led to chronic diseases such as high blood pressure in too many people.
A group of private and state Caribbean attorneys will be drafted in to liaise with the British firm of Leigh Day, which had successfully sued and made Britain pay for brutalizing the Mau Mau Tribe in Kenya several decades ago. The firm has already said that it is confident that the region has a strong case and, like academics and doctors in the University of the West Indies system, has linked a string of chronic diseases rampaging through the Caribbean to the horrors of slavery.
Regional leaders made the decision more than a year ago to back the fight by civil society groups to win reparations following intense lobbying.
Category: World News
I'd like to refer everyone to the Land Claims Settlements with the First Nations in Canada for a comparison. Where not only land previously expropriated was returned where possible but financial reparations have taken place. Also include are apologies and financial compensation for the abuses incurred in the infamous Residential Schools run by churches and government. The people receiving these are the ANCESTORS of those who were displaced, as well as the living survivors of the schools. Canadians in most part don't have a problem with this for they are aware the lifestyle which they enjoy is in many ways a result. And I might add are mature enough to get over their sense of entitlement or manifest destiny unlike many from Europe.
Surprisingly enough, I agree with everything you have so far said Whodatis
One particularly disturbing tragedy in this thread is the overabundance of ignorant comments in regards to current state of Africa.
To suggest that Caribbean descendants of the millions of enslaved Africans are "better off" here than in Africa today is a perspective based on profound ignorance, brainwashery and stupidity.
Clearly the majority of westerners have been miseducated on the history of Africa prior to the arrival of Europeans. Many are unaware of the kingdoms, riches, customs and established social traditions on the continent. It appears as if few know of the bustling and lucrative trade that existed between Afrika and Asia (China and India to be specific). Little is known about the mind-boggling kingdoms of Mali where complete societies were adorned with gold and precious stones. Not many are aware of the kingdoms in Zimbabwe that constructed some of the most amazing structures on earth hundreds of years prior to the arrival of the Europeans.
Instead, many have believed the racist and propganda stories of spear-chucking, animalistic and sub-human primates that plagued the continent – spread by the Europeans back in their home countries, of course.
* Somehow those same Europeans failed to mention that the first university in the world was established in Timbuktu, Mali (yes, it is a real place – not some fantasy land that people "come from") back in the 12th century. It boasted an enrollment of 25,000 people from all over Afrika as well as the Mediterranean.
Nevertheless, from the moment Europeans first stepped foot on the continent they set about destroying and pillaging everything they possible within their reach.
Many question why Africa, the most naturally resourced region on planet Earth, did not take its (seemingly) rightful place (by European standards I guess) in the world and discover and conquer faraway lands and people? To that I simpy reply; "The answer is there within your question."
Why would Afrika – a continent with its own kingdoms, politics and conflicts – have any interest in colonising icy, cold and destitute Scotland, for example? Thesame applies to England, France, Germany etc.? (Ignoring the history of the Moors within Southern Europe for the time being.) Those countries and parts of the world were not only unpleasant to live in, but they did not offer a fraction of the qualities of life-supporting vegetation, climate, landscape, animals and natural resources when compared to Afrika. To conquer and colonize those parts of the world would be a most ridiculous thing to do as far as Afrika was concerned. However, when we view the story from the other side, the opposite comes into reality.
(This is not to say that Afrikans were not explorers. There is documented evidence to the contrary that show the presence of Afrikans, their culture, trade and identity as far away as China, India and even North and South America – long before a European even knew of the concept of gold.)
*A hungry man is an angry man … and the Europeans were literally starving – and some have suggested wicked as well. Hence the history of colonization and the establishment of the "west" – genocide et al.
European countries and kingdoms had all to gain by way of their inhumane exploits – and the going was good for a very long time which culminated in an elevated existence 500 years later … and to this day.
However, it is also important to understand not only the physical rape and molestation of Afrika by Europeans, but also the socially destructive tactics of divide-and-rule that was implemented all over the continent. (As a result today there are an infinite number of "Middle-East-esque conflicts that exist). Therefore, it is easy to see why a continent with such a degree of arrested development for the past 500 years may be suffering from many of its problems today.
Afrika is a continent that has been attacked in every conceivable way, and it is simply due to its magnitude of natural resources. From the coffe beans in your Starbucks frappucino, to the coltan in your Samsung Galaxy 5, to the blood diamond in your wife's engagement ring – most of our daily comforts are tinged with the legacy of Afrika.
Therefore, to conclude, I implore all of us to apply a bit more thought and consideration prior to making remarks such as; "Blacks are better off in the Caribbean or the West today when compared to Africa". To do so is to ignore a 500+ year reality which is quite frankly a very ignorant and uneducated stance to take on the issue at hand.
He really should take up science fiction.
I am really not surprised by your reply as facts and knowledge tend to come across as "science fiction" to the uneducated.
The truth hurts
Yes it does – but only those that, usually for some sinister reason, wish to deny it.
I have spent time in over a dozen African countries. They all seemed horrible places to live.
Well, if those were your personal impressions then who could say otherwise? We are all entitled to our opinions.
However, your post begs the question; Why over a dozen countries? Logic suggests that after country 2 or 3 you would have gotten the point. No?
Why? Easy money. Just like why so many people are willing to live in Cayman.
Sounds like you and "many people" should focus your efforts on making your own countries a prosperous place to live. Wouldn't you agree?
If Cayman and Africa is better for your pocket than wherever you come from that does not say much for your society, does it?
They are "willing" to live in Cayman in most cases because it is remarkable improvement from whence they came. You are fooling no one. This is no hardship post.
That's some rose coloured glasses you got on there buddy!
Here are a few facts:
1) Average life expectancy in the Caribbean – 74 years; average life expectancy in west Africa – 54 years
2) Average income in the Caribbean – $9070; average income in west Africa $309pa.
3) Average literacy rates in the Caribbean 92%; average literacy rates in west Africa 63%.
I suspect it would not matter which metric you chose to look at, they would all demonstrate that life for the average resident of any given Caribbean country today, not 500 years ago, is a lot better than their west African counterpart.
It seems to me that any claim for reparations for ongoing damage caused by the slave trade ought to be coming from the countries who provided the slaves, not those who received them. Then of course you would have to deal with the thorny subject of the willing participation in the trade of Africans themselves, unless of course they were so weighed down with gold and precious stones that they just sat and watched.
You appear to be literate but you also appear to have completely missed the point of my post. I really don't know what else to say to you.
Actually, you have missed the point of your own post – that takes some doing. You start your post by writing:
" To suggest that Caribbean descendants of the millions of enslaved Africans are "better off" here than in Africa today is a perspective based on profound ignorance, brainwashery and stupidity."
My post simply points out facts that refute the view expressed in your words.
'Sus Krist, should I draw a picture?!
My goodness (double-facepalm).
Never mind, ok? Please move on …
It is the sign of the narcissist and an immature mind to always seek to have the last word.
As you just did.
If you HAD to spend the next 15 years in Africa, which country would you choose to live in?
But answer came there NONE.
You oyster!
Actually, I was ignoring your question as it added nothing to the discussion.
Anyway, answer me this question; Where are you from and where do you currently live?
Why is this? Should we regard your rejected homeland similarly to how you apparently regard African countries?
Hmmm …
😉
What the hell is where I’m from and where I currently live got to do with anything, except perhaps that you assume that I am white and you are therefore being tangentially racist? I shall not answer you “as it adds nothing to the discussion.”
The truth is that wherever in Africa you chose to live your life expectancy would drop by about 35% and your standard of living by around 80%. If you happened to belong to the wrong tribe or ethnic group in the area you chose, you could experience terror on a scale that you cannot imagine.
Face it – if you are black and living in the West Indies, your ancestors did you a favour by being enslaved however dreadful and horrific the experience was for them.
Ok buddy.
Try Amazon – they may have some leftover copies of "Hooked On Phonics".
Thereafter you are more than welcome to try again.
Mr Datis,
Please answer the question. Don't be a coward. I know this thread is slipping down the pages but I shall keep looking and I do not want a weasely, politician's answer. Answer the question:
If you HAD to spend the next 15 years in an African country, which one would it be?
My answer would be South Africa but only if I were rich and white. If I were poor and black there is nowhere I could happilyconsider but again SA would have to be my frightened and worried choice.
What a well written, well-informed, factual essay. Many thank for taking the time to publish this enlightening comment.
Thank you. You are most welcome.
Your historical lesson is relatively accurate and i applaud your attempt at painting an alternative story for Africa long past. There were some fabulous civilisations in Africa prior to European colonisation but you too are making vast generalisations if you propose that all of Africa was as rich and culturally advanced as say Mali or Zimbabwe. Africa in the 15th Century was still dominated by hunter gather societies and semi nomadic pastoral agricultural societies. It is just not fair to say that all African's lived in wonderful peacful city states. HOWEVER the more important point is that we are not talking about Africa past, we are talking about Africa present. People are quite correct when they say the Caribbean CURRENTLY has a higher standard of living than many if not most sub saharan african countries. As a lower to middle income earner you would live longer, have better education, suffer less injustice and corruption living in the Caribbean than you would in most African countries. This is a sad reality and fact, which is not changed by the fact that there were some wonderful societies in Africa 500 years ago. i agree there is no excuse for ignorance on a subject but likewise knowledge of the past does not necessarily change the facts of the present.
Please do not miscontrue my words. At no time did I suggest that all of Africa and Africans were at the same level. There were great disparities there as there were in Europe, Asia, the Americas – everywhere.
Furthermore, it is somewhat problematic that people speak of Africa and Africans as a monolithic group. May I remind the room that Africa is a continent with a dizzying number of tribes, groups, cultures and languages.
(E.g. Have we ever regarded Russians as English or vice versa? No, a distinction is always made. I know many westerners do not believe that Africa is worthy of the same respect but it is what it is.)
Similarly to how Highlands and Lowlands Scots were beating each otherover the head with logs, and the English were capturing and enslaving Irish men, women and children – so were the complexities of life on the African continent back then.
Lastly, it appears as if, whether diliberately or innocently, many have missed the actual point of my post. I was not attempting to assign a 600 year old snapshot of Africa and use as the comparison for today's standard. I was illustrating the advances that much of Africa enjoyed when left to her own devices – however, upon and after arrival of Europeans on the continent, there has been a relentless disturbance and hindrance to the development of the continent. My objective was to get the room to imagine what could have been had Africa not been cursed as the most exploited and disregarded continent of the world.
*The greatest irony here is that it is the richest continent of the world. Her first mistake was not realizing the value of said riches to the newcomers all those years ago. To Africa these "riches" were for the most part ordinary, daily stuff. To the newcomers, those ordinary stuff were the justification for slaughtering, enslaving, selling and colonizing millions of fellow human beings.
We should not compare modern day life in the west to modern day life in Africa because neither would hold its current position without the other. The west was, in large part, built upon the destruction of the land, culture and people of Africa.
Nevertheless, the willful misunderstanding and misinterpretation of my post(s) illustrate that many prefer to ignore the reality of the situation and maintain the status quo.
In regard to your last paragraph it could also be that you may not write as clearly or succinctly as perhaps one might hope and people find it difficult to follow the point you are trying to make?
I guess that could be the case poster.
However, if thumb ratios are anything to go by (and in my case are they ever!), I think it is safe to assume that the majority of people that took the time respond to my post would disagree with you.
Nevertheless, you probably consider your personal opinion above that of at least 36 others.
Lastly, do you not find it disturbing that your only or final addition to the debate was that of a personal insult … of an anonymous person, no less?
You are pathetic. Really you are.
Have a good weekend though. Deuces!
– Whodatis
Anyone notice Dr. Brown is part white?
She can sue herself then.
No such thing as "part-white". Just ask a white person.
Lol!!
That was great!
😉
Well, finnancial compesation is not a bad idea. onecondition, if you are getting paid because some nut slave trader displaced you from your mother land, them the money can be use by you, only in your mother land, meaning you are going back??????
did someone asked me?
This is easy. CARICOM has an imaginary lawsuit, so the Europeans can give them a pile of imaginary money.
I have never been one to call for reparations for the Trans-Atlantic African Slave Trade.
However, the monumental shift and balance of global economics, (actual) wealth and power can never be properly understood without a pragmatic analysis of this 450 year period of time.
Folks, 450 years is a loooong time.
The fact that certain countries had absolute free reign to dehumanize millions upon millions of people – treated worse than animals – by way of forcing them to become mere cogs in the wheel of the most lucrative global commodities at the time cannot be swiftly ignored.
Put it this way, if we could compare the states of England, France, Holland, Spain and Portugal before and after the Trans-Atlantic African Slave Trade more people would appreciate the "benefits" that this era brought to the enslaving countries.
Furthermore, the undeniable yet oft discounted fact remains that the effects are still seen and felt today by those on either side.
However, I don't expect much positive feedback on this issue – in fact, I do not expect even a rational or mature reaction by the usual posters here on CNS.
Why should any empathy be forthcoming in 2014 when there has never been a moment in history where the unaffected have meaningfully displayed any genuine compassion for such a horrific legacy. Instead it has always been an attitude of; "Get over it" – from Day 1 of emancipation until tomorrow.
The fact remains that many of us are the descendants of strong Africans that managed to survive the most brutal and wicked of experiences of all identifiable groups in the world today.
To anyone that wishes to make a mockery of that – I simply say;
"F–k you."
Keep your blood money – it appears to have all been misspent by now anyway, judging by the current state of the economy. Furthermore, let us not pretend as if this is a racial or national debate as the majority of people and families of the aforementioned countries were as poor and disregarded by the aristocrats and elites as were our anscestors. The only difference was they; were not in physical chains, never fed to crocodiles (African babies) as a warning message, or ever felt the crack of a slave whip across the back like Kunta Kinte or Patsey. (Ok, those are major differences, but I digress.)
We are still here. Strong, brave, unbroken and human. No amount of reparations could ever take priority over that – for me at least.
Yeah, we get that you are alienated.
Africa is on the rise(12 of the fastest growing economies) while most of Europe is facing problems,Mother Africa and Africans will not be plundered and taken over this time around,no need for their blood money,give thanks and praises,well said Whodatis.
Good points, and although I share your optimism, I am not yet fully conviced that Africa is getting its fair share of the global economic pie. Not when we see, for example, Nestle reporting $17 billion dollar annual profits while African child slaves are providing them with the necessary labour in the Ivory Coast. (I watched an interview with their CEO recently and he found every reason under the sun why the situation on the ground in Africa cannot be addressed and changed.)
Granted, things are much better for many Africans today, however I cannot help to think how the situation would be so different if it was Europe / Europeans sitting atop such vast and diverse natural resources.
Trust and believe a chocolate bar would cost $20 USD on the global market as every farmer would be of legal age, unionized, insured, pensioned and perhaps even subsidised! If not that then the currency (dollar) would have never been taken off the gold standard and there would be no such thing as "inflation".
But I digress.
Thanks for your support and for taking the time to post a reply. Much appreciated.
– Whodatis
Maybe your British half can compensate your Caribbean half.
2 years on and you're still peddling your misconceived impression of Whodatis – despite being corrected on numerous occasions.
You are one special kind of stupid.
Kudos!
– Whodatis
Whodatis, you make some good and valid points and i respect your point of view. I would just like to make one observation though – Mass Slavery in Africa as an 'enterprise' was started by Arabs, not western Europeans. The trade was facilitated by African slavers who collected the poor souls to sell to the Arabs. It wasn't until well into the 18th century that Western European slave buyers came to the shores of West Africa to start buying slaves from the black African slavers that they got involved in any meaningful numbers. Please also note that it was the Western European nations that banned slavery first however Arab slavers continued to buy (and some would say still do) slaves from Black African slavers.
Yes Europe has a lot to answer for but then so do the Arabs and so do the African slavers.
Thank you for the feedback poster.
I am aware of the points that you raised, however, for the basis of the particular issue at hand, the Trans-Atlantic African Slave Trade and the 400+ year enslavement of millions of African men, women and children all over the Caribbean and Americas – the direct offenders and benefactors were the European entities that colonized and gained massively by this horrible legacy.
During these types of discussions there tends to be an injection of the most random and far-fetched angles as a means to relocating the blame or accountablilty for the legacy or slavery.
Also, it is crucial to understand that not EVERY Caribbean or western African slave was BOUGHT from Africa. Remember the time frame in question is 400+ years. There was an established reality during that period and millions of Africans / Blacks were actually born, raised and died knowing only an existence as a Black slave in the western world. Not a single Arab or African slave trader had a direct hand in the enslavement of the millions of generational slaves in the "new world".
So although I can see the point you were making, I am afraid I must respectfully discredit your perspective. It is clear who directly benefited from this crime against humanity in the western world.
*Just to clarify once again, I do not support this call for reparations.
i am looking for a few good slaves…
They can be Spanish or Asian or Indian or African or Chinese or British…
Or even Caribbean…
I am not picky… Just want a few good ones who will work hard for no pay…
… and I am looking for a few good Jews to stuff in my industrial generator and burn for power.
(Funny as well?)
It is so sad that so many out there do not even understand what happened. i could shed some light on this but what is the use, so I will try to forgive and move on.
Typical. More handouts for the self entitled and lazy! They had a word for this back in the day….
Why are they only going after the white slavers? what about the African slavers that sold all the slaves to the whites? AND what about the original slave masters and traders – the Arabs. They were at it long before the whites got involved and long after! surely they are the ones that should be targetted? or is it that they are playing on the 'wests' guilt over the slave trade to make a bit of cash?
The only ones who will make money out of this are the lawyers.
What a crock of sh!t.
People may argue that this was a long time ago, but the descendants of slaves and the indigenous are still punishing. The damage done to the social fabric by the arrogance of the white man is almost impossible to repair.
Many of these people affected are dead and gone and had very little to leave to their families.
Dr. Brown, I am a white man and I am deeply ashamed at what my forefathers did to the indigenous Indians and the displaced Africans.
Their solution. Flood the countries with people from totally unrelated jurisdictions, such as Asian Indians, Filipinos, Eastern Europeans.
No. This is not good enough. Reparations need to happen and the descendants of the oppressed need closure.
No doubt some of the slaves had an awful life. No doubt a lot of them were mistreated. No doubt all those slaves are dead and gone. I was not here at that time. I had nothibg to do with slavery…… not then and not now. I don't feel I owe their descendents anything. Some of the descendents are wealthy today, owning businesses or are otherwise well off. Some faired much better thanothers. This is life….. real life. If you are intelligent and industrious you have a decent chance to get ahead. If you don't learn in school and have no ambition you will fail. All the people wanting "compensation" for something happening many years are just opportunists, trying to get something for nothing. You rarely get something for nothing, even with a shyster lawyer.
If they are your forefathers you pay. Mine were working in mills and coal mines and bear no responsibility whatsoever.
No one said they did. Your brusque “shoot ’em up” statement really does not make much sense. Were your ancestors on the slave boats? People suffered, they still suffer and we need to get to the bottom of it. Please be kinder next time.
I think it’s the insinuation that the respondent’s tax revenues (presumably UK) should go towards the reparations and if the original correspondent feels guilt they should pay out of their own pocket instead. It makes sense to me and seems quite reasonable.
Get over it.
Most of the Caribbean would be completly differnt if it wasn't for slavery.
I'm not saying it was right, off coursr it was wrong. but chances are yuo would not even be alive if it wasn't for slavery or you would be living in Africa with a rather short life expentancy.
Stop wasting time and money. Move on.
…or living in Europe…;-)
Ummm…most developed countries would be different if it weren't slavery since they were built on the backs of slaves.
Prove that large socio-economic layers for generation upon generations of whites are never disenfranchized and you got your money -good luck.
The key difference of course, between the Mau-Mau in Kenya and Caribbean slavery is the fact that the Mau-Mau issue is 60 years old and still in living memory of those who suffered. The Caribbean slave trade ended over 150 years ago depending if you consider the dates 1807 or 1834 to be key for the ending of the slave trade as far as Britain is concerned. Either way, it is long outside of living memory, and those who suffered have long passed away. The matter is several generations removed from current times. The issues facing the Caribbean today may, or may not, relate to the legacy of the slave trade, but with the amount of time that has passed, its really hard to see a realistic corelation. I'm much more inclined to believe that issues effecting the islands today, are as a result of actions of the islanders themselves. But why take responsibility for ones own actions when you can blame the horrors of what happened 150 years ago?
Mo hush money
Sounds like a scheme to legally steal from the public purse to me!
Does these people have nothing useful to do?
No. All the church pastor jobs are filled.
If we cannot trust our leaders here, and in many other Caribbean nations it is worse, even if this case got anywhere, I suspect any proceeds would not find their way to the right pockets. The Mau Mau was a little different, there are still some survivors. Any survivors here would be 250 years old . Can't help feeling this is more about the law firm blowing their trumpet!
Lalalalalalalalalalalallalalalalalalalala. Get over it and deal with your own problems.
The British government compensated slave owners across the British empire at the time of emancipation This allowed former slave owners to start businesses that in many cases were very successful. Former slaves received nothing. Was that justice?
No, but this still amounts to begging for handouts.
Oh God, you are unbelievable.
The Chinese can effectively recover from the rape of Nanking, the Japanese from being Nuked, the Jews from the Holocaust and the Ethiopians from famine, within decades; and yet slavery, horrific thought it was. ( and made possible by the demands and actions of African raiders and Caribbean and American traders) is now the fault and responsibility of modern Europeans whose ancestors were themselves the first in modern times to fight against and outlaw the slave trade?
You blame them for you modern infatuation with fast food and corruption?
You are insane and insult the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands who lost their lives in the “middle passage” and therafter. How long are you going to blame people, of all races, who have been dead for centuries, for your own failings?
Grow up. The true heroes of the period, those that sacrificed and died, would be disgusted. I believe they
at the very least faced their nightmare with true nobility. Those pressing this issue disgrace the memory of those who truly paid the price.
You must be joking. How can the atrocities you mention even remotely compare to 350 years of enslavement, dehumanisation, torture, theft of labour and stripping of identity? As for the Jews, they were indeed paid reparations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany
France in particular should berequired to pay back every cent of reparations with interest compounded from what it stole from the Haiti as reparations for losing slaves. The huge debt it imposed on Haiti is the key reason Haiti is so poor today.
http://www.nathanielturner.com/haitimakescaseforreparations.htm
That’s funny. I seem to recall a guy called Papa Doc, then Baby Doc, and the Ton Ton Macoute. They bled Haiti dry. They were not French and were stealing wealth amassed by the Haitian people long after slavery.
Yes, but you don't recall enough, i.e. that these were puppets of the U.S. Govt. who were quite happy to prop them up and have them plunder the country so long as they did their bidding. You have only added to the liability, my friend. But the principal reason is still the reparations paid to France. You cannot escape that.
Valid points all around poster.
However, as you will have realized by now, racism is a stubborn force and many have attempted to discredit your astute post.
It is amazing, quite shameful really, the dismissive attitude that so many Whites and other non-Blacks take to the era of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade and the ENSLAVEMENT of millions of people as the platform for the western world.
To even have a rational discussion about the matter is next to impossible.
It comes as no surprise how and why the concept of the enslavement of Black Africans was so easily endorsed and implemented back then – just look at the mainstream perspective on the issue in 2014.
(This is why I love the anonymous nature of the internet. It provides the opportunity for people to be honest – be their perspective despicable or otherwise.)
Fast food?
ummm….as an American I think you need to include the British and several other nationalities in the whole slave trading issue.
Oh Christ, so that's why all those people throw litter out of their cars into my yard as they drive by. They need "psychological healing".
African's aught to be grateful to the Europeans that they were brought here under slavery. While it was horrible at the time, their present day ancestors would nver give up the Caribbean to return to any nation in Africa; not for love or money. Therefore as a Caribbean native, I say the score has evened out. Let sleeping dogs lie.