Why did God kill Haitian babies?

| 07/02/2010

Isn’t it heartwarming to see Christian organizations and Christian volunteers working hard to help earthquake survivors in Haiti? How nice. How charitable. How Christian. How insane.

Yes, insane. Isn’t it crazy for Christians to be helping Haitians? After all, wasn’t it their god who turned Port-au-Prince upside down in the first place? If God runs the world and controls every little detail—as many Christians claim—then surely he caused the earthquake. He must have made it happen or, at the very least, chose not to stop it from it happening. Either way, he is responsible. Clearly it was his choice for thousands of Haitians, many of them babies, to suffer and die. If not, he would have lifted a magical finger to prevent it, right? So that leads us to a curious point: why have some Christians been trying to undermine their god’s work by saving Haitians and lessening their suffering? Isn’t it un-Christian to work against God’s work?

One has to sympathise with fundamentalist Christians in the wake of major natural disasters such as the Haiti earthquake (as well those Muslims and Jews who see the hand of God in everything). Their minds must be tormented by the jarring contradiction of a good and loving god who buries babies under tons of concrete.

Oh, I know, I’ve heard all about how disease, tsunamis, and earthquakes are our fault. We deserve them because some goofball named Adam ate an apple back in the day. We have to inhabit a dangerous and deadly world today thanks to his fall from grace. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Because of a single dietary rule infraction by Adam many thousands of years ago, Haitian babies deserve to have buildings fall on their heads in the year 2010. What else but religion can so twist and deaden a mind to a state where something like this makes sense? Only the madness of faith can lead someone to excuse the brutal death of a child by citing some imaginary prehistoric “crime”. How about if I come to your house, drop a concrete block on your puppy, and then tell you it was justified because the world’s first dog bit somebody thousands of years ago? Would you be cool with that? Didn’t think so.

How can decent and sensible Christians make sense out of their “God of love” being behind the sort of merciless destruction Haiti suffered? Do a minimal amount of thinking and it’s plain to see that something is seriously wrong here. The best the preachers ever come up with in their attempts to explain such events is the pathetic “God works in mysterious ways” copout. Yes, crushing thousands of children to death because “He so loves the world” is mysterious indeed. Even worse, some preachers say these things happen because God wants to test people’s faith. I suspect the value of that lesson may have been lost on the babies who slowly and painfully bled to death in the rubble that was Port-au-Prince.

True to form, American preacher Pat Robertson stuffed his foot in his mouth once again when he attempted to explain the Haiti disaster. He stated with certainty on his television show that Haitians had made a pact with the devil in order to escape slavery more than 200 years ago and God was still punishing them for it. How nice. Even as babies were dying agonizing deaths, Robertson was busy excusing it all away.

Ridiculous as Robertson’s claim is, let’s go ahead and accept for the moment that some evil fallen angel with a chip on his shoulder once struck a deal with a bunch of slaves and this angered God so much that he cursed Haiti forever. If this is the case, why haven’t Robertson and others who believe this nutty story paused to ask themselves why their God felt it was appropriate to entomb babies and leave them to choke to death on dust and dirt as punishment for something their distant ancestors did so long ago? What sort of justice is that? What sort of a god would do that? It’s not like we don’t know better. If powerful human leaders kill people because of their ancestry or do anything that even approaches the level of barbarism suggested by Robertson’s Haiti scenario, we condemn them as genocidal madmen.

I have heard some Caymanians inthe past claim that the popularity of voodoo in Haiti led God to curse that nation and condemn it to severe poverty. No doubt, some Caymanians probably tried to connect voodoo and divine curses to the earthquake as well. Again, this is an absurd thing to believe, but even if it was true, good-hearted Christians should be disturbed. So what if some adult Haitians are naïve enough to believe in voodoo? How exactly does this justify impoverished children starving or babies dying in an earthquake?

Hopefully, events like this tragic earthquake will erode a bit of confidence in some believers. Maybe, in the cold shadow of more than 200,000 dead Haitians, they will reconsider their admiration for a god who is so cruel and indifferent to human suffering. Perhaps some Christians will even go so far as to consider the likelihood that a loving god who would bury babies beneath fallen buildings does not even exist in the first place. Let’s hope so, because our world needs a little less religion and a lot more humanity these days.

Category: Viewpoint

Comments (116)

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  1. Young.KY.female says:

    What I don’t understand is why athiests question the possibility of a higher being repeatedly if they don’t want to someday be convinced by some (Christian) who is able to string together the most fitting explanations and "real talk" that one exists.

    Deep down we all hope for a God of sorts, if not to know that we "are not alone" but to have someone or something to blame tragedy on.  This inkling of a feeling is faith.  Some people choose to back their faith up with stories created millions of years ago and also choose to make it their lifetime committment to encourage others to believe as strongly as they do.  Let them be. 

    If you are asking questions, I assume you want answers – and by answers I can rightfully assume you want to expand your knowledge and diminish any ignorance you may have even if you are unaware of it.  Don’t let the persistence, ways and faith of others distract you from your own.  If you don’t believe, then don’t ask; if you feel millions of Christians are wasting their time, then chuckle to yourself rather than about the "poor soul" who believes more in something than you ever will.

    Everyday people turn a blind eye to the problems of the world, so ask yourself why you chose to read this article (and to comment) if not slightly interested.

    For what it’s worth, though, I don’t think it’s fair to only bring up the nature of death when it is in such massive form as the earthquake in Haiti. Just because we heard about it doesn’t mean people aren’t dying every day of disease no matter how rich or poor. It doesn’t mean people don’t lose their entire family due to other causes every day.  It doesn’t mean people don’t KEEP on LIVING in pain for decades or cause others to live their entire lives in pain.

    If you are at peace with your faith whether it be in the slightest (and you have that much if you’ve read this much of my post), or so great that it consumes your life that you cannot lead a "normal" life by definition of others then stop asking questions.  If you would like your faith to change, then keep asking questions – if not by others then maybe by that so-called higher power.  But don’t judge others for what they believe in and why. Because they obviously got the answers they wanted.  Willyou get yours?

    • Anonymous says:

      Just becuase someone is satisfied with the answer does not mean it is the truth.

      People were once satisfied with the world being flat and at the centre of the universe, and were satisfied with burning women at the stake because they were believed to be witches. Why? Because they all thought it was the truth.

      There is nothing wrong with questioning current practices and ideologies; that is how humans progress.

  2. Burnard Tibbetts says:

     

    Referring to my earlier submission as born-Caymanian simply means that I am as entitled to speak along the lines of “Caymanian Conscience” as any other person, Caymanian or otherwise.

    I agree completely that the Almighty God did give people the right to think and choose for themselves.

    I did un-intentionally make a couple of omissions in the last paragraph of my earlier entry which should have read  “As far as the children  that died from catastrophic situations in Haiti or anywhere else are concerned, I believe that many of them may have been orphaned and left at the mercy of the world to agonize and suffer without love and affection, and that the Almighty God will have welcomed them in to His Heavenly home beyond the reach of the physical realm, to a place which is not subject to sickness, sorrow, suffering or calamities but abounds in love and joy forever.

    It is good to remember that “facts cannot be altered or eliminated by argument, dispute or unbelief.”

    Meanwhile, I invite anyone who wishes to dispute or discuss anything that I have stated, to please call me at 345 916 5641 and I will be happy to have a friendly discussion with them.

    Burnard Tibbetts

  3. Solomon Grundy says:

    All you people talking about this God like you know him! Do you even know how many brothers he has? Well, do you. Alden, do you know? Come on now, tell me how many brothers he has!

    • About says:

      My guess would be the same number of siblings as the Tooth Fairy. 

    • Anonymous says:

      Yes, we do. We have personal relationship with Him. And no, he doesn’t have brothers since He is unique, the Almighty.  

      Good Ellio impersonation though! 

  4. Burnard Tibbetts says:

     

    It distressing to see that someone would identify themselves as “Caymanian Conscience” with such a blasphemous mindset.

    As a genuine born-Caymanian, I feel obliged to make a comment that may help some people realize that the Almighty God who did design and create the universe and everything in it, has enough wisdom to know what is best for each person, and has every right to decide what should take place in it.

    Considering all the un-prejudiced theories and evidence that exists, I am convinced that there is an Almighty God who is alive and well, and that He is not restricted to physical limitations but has a wise purpose for everything that he does, whether we understand it or not.

    I am also convinced that he gives each one a choice to trust Him or reject Him and even to doubt, disown, disobey and blaspheme Him.  The choices of course are subject to His laws and the rewards that may apply.

    Now, I would like to suggest that as Creator and thus owner of everything, He has every right to make decisions about what happens, without owing me an explanation.  Further, I propose that people who reject and despise the Almighty God has very little rights of existence in His domain, even though He allows them to live in it because of His endless mercy.

    As far as the children that died from catastrophic situations in Haiti or anywhere else are concerned, I believe that many of them may have been orphaned and left at the mercy of the world to agonize and suffer without love and affection, and that the Almighty God will have them in to his Heavenly home beyond the reach of the physical realm, to a place which is not subject to sickness, sorrow, suffering or calamities but abound in love and forever.  

    • Anonymous says:

      If God simply wanted the Haitian babies in heaven, then couldn’t he have come up with a nicer way to get them there?

      Crushing thousands of children under tons of metal and concrete seems a bit excessive. Many of them died slowly and in great pain. Couldn’t your god have killed them a little more humanely?

      It’s tragic when religous beliefs diminsh our ability to feel empathy.

    • Someone Who Respects You and Your Opinion says:

      Mr. Burnard, I have the greatest of respect for you and your opinon and your life choices.

      The issues arise from those who don’t. It is just as important that Christians respect and accept the opinions and beliefs of non-believers.

      Much of the animosity in these postings is a result of having opinions and beliefs shoved down one and others throats. We all know where the churches are and will go to them when and if we see fit. We have all heard of your God and will worship him when and if we see fit.

      Countless hours in the Stake Bay Baptist Church led me to not believe rather than the other way around. Wrong to you perhaps, but my choice all the same.

      An Old Friend who owes you a lot.  

    • noname says:

      You do realise, Mr. Burnard, that you are blasmephous in the context of many religions other than your own, right?

      If this does not concern you, then you should be able to understand why being blasphemous in your judgement does not concern me.

      How do you know this heaven you speak of exists? Because a book says it does?

      • Caymanian says:

        You do realise that Mr. Burnard is NOT blaspheming in the context?

        You realise that you are now in the Cayman Islands? 

        Blasphemy would be irreverence to God here in the Cayman Islands. 

        If you worship a person or other "being" then realise that you are in a country that sees God as the one true Lord and therefore supporting his will and word can not be blasphemy.

         

        Please concern yourself with other matters; as the old saying goes… when in Rome… do as the Romans.

        • Blasphemizin' says:

          Oh really, what if he keeps the wrong Sabbath day? What if he does not give his allegiance to the Pope?

          Those choices would mean his a bit off course, to say the least, according to many "genuine born Caymanians" who happen to be Seventh Day Adventists or Catholics.  

          Furthermore, how do you presume to speak for all Caymanians? You do know that there are "genuine born Caymanians" who are Muslims and even more than a few who are atheists, right? If you don’t know this then you are out of touch with your own people here in your own country. 

           

        • Come on sense says:

           Ah Cayman Christianity.. Respect the Sabbath unless there’s money to make from a cruise ship.. keep out gays but support the thieves in government.. ahh sweet sweet tax free hypocrisy.

          All you Jamaicans can leave too, right after you fix that building/street/clean up after us/keep the economy ticking over.. then leave

          • Big Tunes says:

            Tell me one, authentic, Caymanian owned, major business that is catering to customers on Sunday?

            Kirk’s nah open, Fosters has pharmacy but that only for medicine, Cox nah open, Hurley’s lock up tight and the list goes on.

            I agree that some of the younger generation aren’t treating Jamaicans right but they did it to themselves by thinking everything should be given to them on a silver spoon.

            So what if we aren’t particularly fond of people who live completely different from the majority of us.  We, the Caymanians that built these islands are supposed to sit back and let some other country tell us that we have to accept everything?  I don’t think so!  That is why we are here and not there!  We made our name and now we will stake our claim!

            These islands are about love and hard work.  If you have a different view than us, that’s great, but don’t expect us to change our views to please you.

    • Anonymous says:

      A couple of questions

      1. Why do you feel it is necessary to state you are a "genuine born-Caymanian"? What does this have to do with the points you are making?

      I can only assume it is stated to somehow show that your views have more validity then someone who is not a genuine born-Caymanian. Maybe you can explain this to me as I would be very interested to understand. I could understand if you actually had said a born again Christian.

      2. You state that "as Creator and thus owner of everything, He has every right to make decisions about what happens, without owing me an explanation". Let us for the sake of discussion assume that there is a God then by the very fact that it has given human kind the ability to think for themselves then it should expect to be challenged. After all throughout the history of mankind without questioning and challenging we would still be living in caves etc.

      3. You "propose that people who reject and despise the Almighty God has very little rights of existence in His domain, even though He allows them to live in it because of His endless mercy." If God does exist and has endless mercy surely it will look at the way a person acted during their life before judging them not how often they went to worship or professed their belief or belittled those who dont believe? If he does not have this attitude then I for one dont what to be associated with such a being in the same way as I dont want to be associated with such a person who is alive.

      4. As to your last paragraph, I am stunned. If I was to go over to Haiti and kill children in the street who look like they are suffering following the earthquake and I used the excuse "that many of them may have been orphaned and left at the mercy of the world to agonize and suffer without love and affection" then I would be rightly seen as a monster.

      • Anonymous says:

        Not sure why you are stunned by the past paragraph (from which you have excerpteda quote of context). It is a simple statement of fact. What you have ignored is the last clause of that sentence.   

        • Anonymous says:

          Putting aside the questions of ophans what about those children who were not orphaned and who would have gone on to lead full and fulfilling lives and leave behind greiving parents. Do you think it is better for them to be taken by this almighty being you believe in.

          Lets face it, no compasionate being would deliberately kill innocent children let alone adults. Therefore it leads me to one of two conclusions. Either God has lost control and has become a melamaniac or (assuming there is a God) it does not control everything and things like war and earthquakes just happen and is not some sort of overall plan.

          Mind you it may be its favorate way of reducing human population because (if my dim memories of the bible are correct) didnt some biblical figure order the killing of all first born children and if this is God’s will it is very nice of it to look after its own and sod everyone else.

          • Old Buddy 2 says:

            Your entire comment can be summed up in this short fact;

             

            God has not lost control… man has. 

            Is Haiti the only place in the world with children dying?  What about the tsunami’s? Hurricanes and other events?

            God has an ultimate plan… I suggest you get in it!8

            • Anonymous says:

              I do agree you with! I do suggest that you try and be in God’s plan. We have no authority what so ever to question why and what God does (remember that). He is the only person who has the final say. Not me, nor you, nor anyone else for that fact. So grow up and stop be an idiot try at accept that there is a creator.

      • Old Buddy says:

        Let me clarify some points for you…

        1. The genuine born Caymanian is in reference to the fact that Mr. Burnard is a traditional Caymanian than the writer of the commentary.

        It makes his argument more authentic.  If you can’t tell from the post that he is a born again Christian then his life surely proves it.

        2. The bible tells us in the very first book that man has a right to think… thus setting us apart from all other animals.  Your argument here really doesn’t make sense so I won’t comment any further on it.

         

        3.  The way you live is important… you seem to miss one very importantn fact that Christians know.  This is that you can live your life as a great person but if you never ask Christ to be the center of your life then you are simply doing it in vain because you will still end up in hell.  Mercy is being referred to as in will to give people the opportunity to accept his Son Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour.

         

        4.  As someone already stated… read the entire paragraph.  You seem quick to find fault but take your time and read everything.  This is why Mr. Burnard wrote the post.  It is not a genuine born Caymanian who would have wrote such a commentary regarding such a bias and hatred towards God… but hey… that’s how you increase your readership I guess.

        • Dick Dawkins says:

          "The bible tells us in the very first book that man has a right to think"

          It also tells us that the world appeared by magic, that man arrived in his present form by magic 6,000 years ago, the entire animal world fitted in a small boat and came back out after a global flood to replenish the globe and other fine fairy stories.  Genesis is not the best starting point to base a reasoned argument.

          PS How did all the marsupials trek down to Australia from Mount Ararat and none of them go anywhere else or leave any remains on such a vast journey? Just asking, so you can help me believe in Genesis, just asking . . .

          • Just answering says:

            There are no "fine fairy" stories in the Bible.  The creation of the world was not magic, it was by devine design.  Are you telling me that I should believe that the world happened by chance? a bang?  why isn’t it still happening?

             

            Genesis is the only starting point!

            PS. How did you get to the Cayman Islands?  How did the Pink Mealey Bug get here?  Even though you should know this… once an animal finds somewhere that it thrives, it stays.  Spend time reading the book with an open mind that will help you believe, it did for me! 

            • Wally the Wombat says:

              Don’t ignore us marsupials – we are great evidence that Genesis is a work of fiction.

              • Anonymous says:

                Wally, wally, wally… I honestly thought you’d never respnd.

                I’ve heard from your marsupial cousins (possums) in both North and South America, once again proving that you cannot think enough to know that marsupials don’t only live in Australia!

                Learn before you copy a website arguing Christianity!

                • Wally the Wombat says:

                  Those are very distant cousins (about the same relationship as I am to you).  How about evidence of the Australasian marsupial family trekking from Mt. Ararat in the last 5,000 years.

                  And while you are at it, explain fossils.

                  • John 3:16 says:

                    Fossil were placed in the earth to test our faith.

                  • Anonymous says:

                    So you agree that they are family then and can therefore obviously travel to other continents… weather by land or sea.  Why would there be documentation of marsupials traveling anywhere?  Do you keep a log of where your dog goes on a daily basis… after all, someone 5,000 years down the road might need to know.

                    Ok….. Genesis 10:25 states that the world was divided… How exactly?  I wasn’t there so I couldn’t tell you… maybe since you were there you could?  Why don’t you explain it all to us since you seem to have helped or think you have a better explanation?

                    Fossils and the flood make perfectly good sense to me.  If you are trying to say that a geologist can tell by looking at a fossil that it is however many millions of years old then I would love for them to prove that one.  Please have some intelligence.  Didn’t you go to school?  Don’t you know that many nuts went to class with you and in fact some may have gone on to be scientists or Dr’s but does that make them intelligent.

                    Let me put it this way… many people are educated beyond their intelligence.  Why should I believe one person in the last few years when I have thousands of years of evidence to stand on.

                    Ask any historian what is the most complete and accurate book of history.  Don’t think he is going to say dawkins… the Bible is the only way my friend.

                    • Anonymous says:

                      ‘Why would there be documentation of marsupials traveling anywhere?  Do you keep a log of where your dog goes on a daily basis’

                      It’s called a fossil record. When the fossils of the same species are discovered, you are able to learn their population distribution and any migration pathways they may have took. So no, it is not the same as keeping a log of where your dog goes on a daily basis, as your dog does not die repeatedly at each of its different destinations.

                      ‘Genesis 10:25 states that the world was divided… How exactly?  I wasn’t there so I couldn’t tell you’

                      If you weren’t there, then why would you believe a piece of literature written several hundreds of years ago. It is equivalent to someone 5000 years down the road from now and picking up a copy of Harry Potter and believing everything it says without critically analyzing it.

                      ‘If you are trying to say that a geologist can tell by looking at a fossil that it is however many millions of years old then I would love for them to prove that one.  Please have some intelligence.’

                      No, you, have some intelligence.  The age of fossils can be determined by the radioactive decay of carbon-14. 

                      ‘Why should I believe one person in the last few years when I have thousands of years of evidence to stand on’

                      Carbon dating and the analysis of fossils has been going on for much longer than a few years bobo. And aren’t you the one who is believing a group of humans from 2000 years ago? A group of humans who do not have the same knowledge of their surroundings as the humans of today.

                      ‘Ask any historian what is the most complete and accurate book of history’

                      Please give me the names of these historians so I can research them. Should I be expecting them to tell me that there truly was a global flood and that Noah had to build an ark to house a pair of every animal species? Oh wait, historians haveee said that there was a flood during the time specified in the bible…. only that it was regional, not global. Big difference.  And if Noah was on a ‘save the animals’ mission, why do we currently have bacteria and protozoa plaguing our lives? I guess they most have popped up somehow once they saw the flood was cleared.

                    • Anonymous says:

                      "The age of fossils can be determined by the radioactive decay of carbon-14".

                      Carbon dating can only be used if carbon remains and is therefore not a reliable method of dating fossils. For this reason fossils are not usually able to be dated by any radiometric method. Instead, fossils are often dated by evolutionists according to ages that have already been assigned to various rock layers. 

                      Fossils do not provide evidence for macro-evolution. Instead, they are more consistent with animals being deeply and quickly in some catastophe. Most are very similar if not identical to living animals today.

                        "Fossils are a great embarrassment to Evolutionary theory and offer strong support for the concept of Creation." (Dr. Gary Parker, Ph.D., Biologist/paleontologist and former Evolutionist).

                      You see the Bible as merely the creation of man, whereas we see it as divinely inspired. These are two totally different worldviews and so we can never come to agreement on these issues. If it is divinely inspired, as we believe, it does not matter that the human writers lived 2,000+ years ago and were less aware of their surroundings etc. because it is not based on how clever or knowledgeable they were. 

        • Anonymous says:

          ‘The bible tells us in the very first book that man has a right to think… thus setting us apart from all other animals.’ That got me laughing pretty hard.

          Do you seriously believe ONLY humans are capable of thinking? Do you really believe non-human animals have no thought process? How do they carry out their actions whether it be mating, taking care of their offspring, foraging for food, where to seek shelter, how to avoid predation, and the list goes on. Try so read a few zoology articles or even watch National Geographic if you don’t like to read anything else other than the bible. You’ll see that octupi and crows have a high problem-solving ability and that dolphins, killer whales, lions and wolves hunt in organized packs, just to name a few. All those actionsn require the ability to analzye your environment and make a decision, this means they are THINKING.

          Or wait, all those behaviours were just programmed because they are robots right?

          • Anonymous says:

            The next wolf I see talking on their blackberry I am going to congratulate.

            I didn’t say they didn’t know how to survive.  I said, "think."  Now you tell me, if you wereraised doing the same thing day in and day out because you saw everyone around you doing it, would you do different?  For instance, a wolf who wonders off from the pack will get killed. 

             

            Humans, however, being of higher intelligence would understand that there are ways to survive and then thrive.  We can think outside of what we have seen day in and day out… including all the route activities that you mentioned.

            Now if you want to talk about laughing… I have to get up off the floor… because you are telling me to believe the National Geographic and not the Bible?  You are not even worth wasting my time on.

            National Geographic = paid advertising = needs viewership = will put stupidness on TV/print. 

            Bible = been around for thousands of years (holy scriptures… actual bible for over half a millenium).  Has been proven correct, both historically and prophetically. 

            Please have some intellegence and don’t ask me to judge or watch something that is being paid for… in fact, think for yourself and learn how media works!

            • Anonymous says:

              Hate to burst your bubble, but I agree with the orginial poster. A lone wolf can survive without its pack. So can a lion. And humans are not the only animals which can exhibit higher intelligence. Crows and octupi have been scientifically studied and put through puzzles to exhibit how they are able to overcome new challenges which they have never faced before. This is not something that is learnt day in and day out. Humans are not the only ones that have problem-thinking skills. Also, you seem to believe that the process of thinking is not related to survivng… I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion because if an animal, whether it be human or not, would be unable to survive if it did not think, as they would be unable to analyze their situation and respond accordingly.

              Too many people have a human superiority complex. And it’s the reason why many exploit and abuse our environment. So get over it, we’re not the only ones with high intelligence.

              Also, the bible has been proven historically and prophetically? Sure it has been historically proven to be written by humans, and altered during its beginning years. Prophetically proven? No one would know about that because as far as I know, no one from that era still exists and can tell us what exactly happened. Therefore, it is hear say… something that is not allowed in our own legal courts to be used as evidence to win a case.

              But this is not an argument about proving God or not. The orginal poster is simply stating that humans are not the only ones with higher intelligence, and there is multiple scientific evidence to prove it.  NGC may have a lot of sponsoring and financial support, but you know what, so does the Vatican Church with their billions of dollars..

              • Anonymous says:

                No bubble burst over here… You don’t have to agree with me… it’s up to you.

                So you make the point that a wolf/lion can survive without the pack… that is not deep enough into where I was going.  My point is that it will basically only do what it has always learned to do.  Of course you can train it to do more but they survive on instinct from what they were trained by their pack.

                You know, I watched the same Dicovery channel about the octupi and I still don’t see how you could consider opening a jar of peanut butter thinking or as you call it, problem-thinking. (Problem-solving maybe a better choice of words). 

                So you know it was altered? Aren’t you then just ruining your entire argument regarding prophecy?  Isn’t that hear say… or were you there?

                To prove that it is not hear say:

                Phropetically… It stated that the Isrealites would be scattered around the world and then come back together to form a nation… tell me… did that happen in 1948 or is that hear say?

                It also stated that Jesus would be born… Christian or no christian… did that happen about 2010 or so ago or is that hear say?

                Tell me what is going to happen next year to Cayman?  (hear say).

                I can’t speak for Catholics or the Vatican because I don’t believe in or worship either one… I am a christian who believes in Christ… tell me, who sponsors him?

                 

                • Pope Benedict says:

                  Are you aware that Catholics worship Christ as well? Catholicism is a branch of Christianity.

                  Did the bible say that Israel would be formed in 1948? I don’t remember that being written in there.

                  But who am I anyway? How would I know?

                   I doubt that you’ll know because obviously you are so busy worrying about Vaticanism and the fact that wolves and lions are running around together in packs.

                • Anonymous says:

                  Enough with the superiority complex. Have you forgotten that we are animals too? That our basic instict is to survive. Do you think only non-human animals train their offspring on what to do? From the moment a human is born, they are ‘trained’ that they need to do whatever necessary in order to survive. How does one survive? It may be by earning money in order to pay for shelter, food, clothes, heat, or it may be that they are in a tribal community and are trained to forage and hunt, make fires etc. How does one earn money? We are trained that we need to get a job. How do you get a job? We are trained that we first need an education.

                  Majority of people do not stray from what they have been ‘trained’ to do, whether they be tribal or not. Those that do, often are beggers or criminals. Equivalent to a lone wolf who has strayed from the pack and now has a harder life.

                  Back to animals being able to think. I should have initially included a definition of the verb ‘to think.’  Amongst the several definitions for the verb in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, ‘to think’ means:

                  1) to determine by reflecting ( what to do next)

                  2) to devise by thinking (planning)

                  3) to subject to the processes of logical thought (think things out)

                  If you are unable to see how that applies with the octupus, then here is another example. Crows are very smart animals and given the opportunity they will most certainly display a high level of problem solving.  Here are a few videos to watch.





                  These birds were not trained, nor were the octupi. Yet they were able to analyze (think things out) the situtation, reflect, and devise a plan on how to obtain the food. If you still cannot put the two together, than that is unfortunate.

                  As for the ‘prophecy’ stating that the Jews would return to their ‘homeland’ that is the equivalent to me saying that the Palestinians will one day get their homeland too, as many have already stated that. And when it does, the Palestinians will claim that their prophecy has come true. Do not get me started on the issue of Israel, as their creation has allowed their government to carry out heinous crimes to the Palestinians and Lebanese in their mission to get their ‘homeland.’

                  A prophecy is the same as someone making a statement and it coming true one day. Let me make one now, ‘Life on Earth will eventually cease to exist.’ And this will come true, as our Sun will eventually burn out. Or will that be referred to as the Apocalypse? How about this one ‘The Obama administration will continue their propogation of wars in the Middle East to now include an attack on Iran.’  I wonder if my prophecy will come true.. only time will tell. Or will it only be considered a prophecy if God is speaking through me? Well, he did. No one can tell me he did not.

                  I too, can say that a person who will change the world will be born in the years to come.

                  So you’re a Christian who believes in Christ. Ok, and so who do Catholics and the Vatican Church believe in?… Christ… You all believe in the same person… so yes, your Jesus has been promoted for centuries with billions of financial support. (And I have never heard of sponsorship for a dead person… youcan only sponsor someone who is alive.)

                  I am not arguing to debate the existence of your God or that the Bible is nonsense. I have gone through enough religious classes during elementary and highschool to realize that yes the Bible has many good moral teachings, but it also has many faults. Faults written by humans who did not have the same level of knowledge of their surrounding processes as we currently do now. When you have scientific proof that disprove certain statements in the Bible such as ‘only humans were given the ability to think’ than you should greet it with an open mind as it allows us to move forward and better understand our environment. It is in no way saying that your God does not exist.

  5. Anonymous says:

    Why did God kill Haitian babies?
    SIMPLE: If you are referring to the Christian concept of God, he is a TYRANT! Read the Bible’ Old Testament, you will see why he is a Tyrant that allowed so much atrocities against human beings!
    You should ask a more realistic and beneficial question, like:

    Why Haitian babies had to die in the quake?
    I will answer: Haitian babies died in the quake because it is what life has bestowed to us!
    Do you seriously think life is just like a bed of roses??? Folks, you can’t have life without the thorns too! There is a time for everything – learn to humbly ACCEPT it!

    Learn this always –
    If you can’t accept the outcomes of life (the good and the bad experiences), your mind will always be looking for some comforting drug or faith! Your mind will always be playing guessing games to whatever pops-up in your head like attributing suffering to some concept of a God!

    True human beings don’t pretend they know God; they live and deeply know life that’s how come they can love others as themselves! There minds are not caught up with beliefs or a faith! They are always in the Here & Now! When bad times hit them, they just learn to bear it, get up, and continue living life to the fullest!

    • Anonymous says:

      So persons of religious faith are only pretending to know God and are not "true human beings"!? LOL! Are you about sentence us to the gas chambers? You have justexcluded 95% of the world’s population as less than fully human.   

      Statistics show that persons of true religious faith are best able to cope with disasters and tragedy. For the most part, those of no faith are fine so long as life is going well and they feel in control of their lives. After all if life is meaningless what is the point if you keep meeting with tribulation? 

      As to your blasphemy, I hope for your sake that you repent.   

      • Anonymous says:

        Pretty much the commentator is right. I wouldn’t had used the word "pretend" though. I would have said, "True human beings don’t BELIEVE in God, but KNOW God."

        As for blasphemy, you sound like a Bible-thumpin’ foundamentalist. I personally, don’t KNOW of a Christian concept of God being true. So I don’t worry myself over what I don’t know. So does that make me guilty of blasphemy to live each day as it comes???

        The commentator has nothing to repent for!  You are the one who should repent! 

        • Anonymous says:

          You seem to be confused. If you are not the original poster then I did not accuse you of blasphemy. If someone states that God is EVIL that is by definition blasphemy. (what is interesting that from this one word you have judged me to be "a bible thumping fundamentalist").

          The original poster seems to be making the opposite assertion to you. It is not that one should know God but that God is EVIL. 

          I am not sure what you think I should repent for. Believing in God?  Honouring him? Knowing him? Rebuking a blasphemer?   

          • Bodden says:

            There are different views of God in the world; not one person sees alike. You have so many people in the world so settled in their religious beliefs that they fail to see and acknowledge the diversity. From school days, I learnt there are 7 major world views, which most people fall under:

            1.      An infinite God that is beyond and in the universe. Christians, Muslims, and Jews hold on to this perception. The world was created by God, but became finite and temporal when through free choice, people choose not to obey God (sin). To a Haitian, these individuals would usually put the blame of their devastation on sin.
             
            2.      A God that does not exist beyond the universe or in it. Such as an Atheist who says the universe is all there is. The world was never created by a god or gods; it always was! Mankind’s biggest downfall has nothing to do with free choice, but human ignorance. To a Haitian, Atheists will accept the earthquake devastation as a part of life. Interestingly, many atheists have a “sense of evil” and high moral standards.  
             
            3.      A God that IS the universe. This view is accepted by Buddhists and certain forms of Hinduism like Vendantists. In this view, God is All and All is God. The world is not created, but rather it “originates” and comes forth from God (meaning consciousness), but it appears to be separate and distinct from everything else through human perception and/or the five limited human senses (i.e., sight, hearing, touch, scent, and taste). To a Haitian, these people will also accept the negatives of an earthquake as a part of life, but will attribute human suffering to not “seeing the big picture.”
             
            4.      A God that is IN the universe. This view is hardly accepted by any major faith, but certain philosophers, such as, N. Whitehead, Charles Hartshorne, and Schubert Ogden. These people see God in the universe as a mind is in a body. Thus, they see evil as a necessary aspect of God. I suggest you research Panentheism, the label for this religious view. It is an interesting concept.
             
            5.      An infinite God that is beyond the universe, but not in it. Many of the first American’ Founding Fathers were said to hold this view like President George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Paine – the tongue of the American Revolution. They held a Christian-like view of God, but without the miracles. To them, God operated by law, and the Bible was commonsense / Mother Nature rather than a written book. God created the world and left the world to be governed by its scientific and moral laws. Sin arose from free choice as well as human ignorance. These individuals would blame either violation of natural and moral laws of God to the Haitian quake.
             
            6.      A finite God that is beyond and in the universe. Again certain philosophers have adopted this view, such as, John Stuart Mill. It basically affirms that God beyond the universe and active in it, is not infinite, but is limited in his nature and power. God creates the world and human beings, but does a poor job because he is not that powerful and intelligent. These people would point to such devastations like earthquakes as a sign of God’s weakness or “old age.”
             
            7.      There are many gods in the universe. Modern-day Mormons and ancient Greeks represent this view. The origin of evil, quakes, and natural disasters is the struggles between gods. Yet they are finite and personal. Just like the moon affects the tide, these gods affect our lives.
             
            Different world views attach different meanings to the events of the world and life. As you can see, just the word “God” has different meaning. Before we talk about God, there is only one true view of what God is! Ultimate reality or all that exist is either the universe only, God only, or the universe and God(s).One can only be right, and who do you see more right than yourself! If fear and belief has caused you to not be opened and willing to learn from others, how will you ever understand others? You need broad education and understanding in order to truly love people and accept them for who they are!
            • Anonymous says:

              Quite interesting. Not sure what it has to do with the previous exchange though.

  6. Anonymous says:

    Religion:

    A blessing for the poor and uneducated.

    An annoyance for the intellectuals.

    A usefull instrument of fear for leaders/politicians.

     

    That’s how simple it is.

     

     

    • Anonymous says:

      Wow, so few words, so much truth.

       

    • Anonymous says:

      Wed 02/10/10 – 21:40

      Please go join BIN LADEN you two have the same mind!!  He’s very educated!!! 

    • Anonymous says:

      And now for the truth!

      Faith:

      Of no use for the weak in mind.

      Unavoidable proof that no scientist can change.

      It’s spiritual… without God you can’t even begin to understand.

       

      That’s how simple it is.

  7. Island Atheist says:

    I’ll say this much…

    Christianity was used as a tool to capture, ship and for 400 years brutally enslave and slaughter my forefathers – before that Islam was the tool of choice. Interestingly, they were in turn both used to justify the horrid acts as well.

    All I know is this – religion gets away with murder!

    "God" may as well have not bothered to be there. Even today I don’t see him demonstrating great act of overwhelming mercy upon the state of mankind. In fact, he appears to have quite a twisted and narcissistic ego at times.

    (Yeah, yeah … I know – those were acts of men … blah blah blah. And I completely agree – historical events always seem to be at the hands of man … even when many harken onto God as the driving force.)

     

     

     

     

  8. Kracker says:

     http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/massacre_of_the_peaceful_unsuspecting_people/jg18_01-02.html

    According to the Bible this loving God was quite into the slaughter of peaceful innocent people.

     

  9. jenny vanbergen says:

    I believe human beings have multi-faceted experiences; this is how ‘God’ can co-exist with physical suffering. 

    The best explanation I have ever found for God is given in this 15 minute inspirational talk by Dr Jill Bolte, a brain scientist who describes how a spiritual experience existed side by side with severe physical trauma as her body suffered a devastating stroke.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

    • Anonymous says:

      Spirituality is not equal to Christianity.

      • Anonymous says:

        True, there are all sorts of spirits. Spirituality also does not equal "good".  

        • Anonymous says:

          Spirituality is stupid. Define "spirit". Show me a spirit. Show me evidence of a spirit.

          Spirituality is just a vague meaningless concept. It’s a way some people can still let themselves believe nonsense while thinking of themselves as smarter and less gullible than the loons who follow mainstream religions.

          Spirituality, whatever it is, is just as silly as traditional religion.

          • Anonymous says:

            A spirit is a supernatural being or essence. God is Spirit. Angels are spirits, and so are demons. Spirits do not occupy physical space and therefore cannot be measured as we would measure material things. Spirits are in evidence in supernatural effects and manifestations, e.g. prophecy, healing, miracles. Spirituality involves being in tune with the realm of spirit. It operates through theta brain wave activity. Those who operate simply through beta brainwave activity (thinking, problem solving etc.) will not understand theta brain wave activity and may dismiss it as imagination, insanity, stupidity etc. 

            Actually some people who seek after the supernatural are very gullible and are sometimes duped by charlatans. However, the genuine article does exist. It is very real and not at all stupid.  

            • Himmler says:

              Uh, sorry, you wrote a lot of words but you didn’t respond to the request.

              Once again: Show me a spirit. Show me evidence of a spirit.

              Animists believe that spirits inhabit trees, animals, rocks, etc. Do you believe that too? If not, why not? Why is your spirit belief superior to theirs?

              You say spirits are"very real". Okay, and how do you know this? What is your evidence. And remember, stories are not proof. If so, you would have to believe in elves too.

              • Anonymous says:

                Actually I did respond to the question and in effect explained that the specific request to show you a spirit is not meaningful. I gave you a number of examples of evidence of spirit. It seems your problem is one of lack of understanding or obtuseness.   

                I know this because of personal experience.  

                I won’t be responding further since  your purpose is clearly not to understand. 

                • Slaymanian says:

                  Or yours is not to educate, but rather ram your view down their throat by "refusing to respond further"…

                  Not everyone gets a point the first, second or even third time, but if it is a valid point, the educator will take the time to walk them through.  If it is an irrational belief, they will throw up their hands and tell them it is their fault they don’t get it, or they are just the ones with the problems…  You tell me… Going to tke the time to prove it, or are you the latter…

                   

  10. Anonymous says:

    Let me pose this thought;

    This may be the way that Christians can get into the country easier and show the love of God through medical aid, shelters, food, and other needed supplies.
     

  11. Dred says:

    We are all idiots to even respond to this topic. The writer is a mental midget in life.

    What he/she is trying to accomplish is to put the Religious against the Athiest AGAIN!!

    YES I am tired of hearing God spared us from…..xyz because he didn’t. It was just how things flowed. God doesn’t pick and choose who to punish in this world. He does it in his. Because he created the flood back days of old doesn’t mean every flood or every event is his doing. He created the earth with all of it’s faults and set it adrift in time. Like us it has kind of a mind of it’s own. We surely can not blame God for someone we kill the same way we can not blame him for every storm that arises.

    This disturbed me to no end back many years ago when Hurricane Mitch was coming at us then suddenly changed direction and went to Honduras. People were shouting Thank God it spared us. So are we saying Honduras deserved this? I don’t believe it was a choice of God. I believe it simply was to be. God didn’t save us and he didn’t condemn them. The God I believe in would not kill 6,000 innocent women and children.

    But back to the issue. Leave it alone. You are like a pervert trying to gain some sick thrill out of putting two factions against each other by throwing this out in the street and letting people fight over it.

    If you all have half a brain you will simply leavethis topic alone now and let it die. It’s sick to meddle with these things. The only reason I am even commenting is to hope people will just drop it.

    • Anonymous says:

      Dred, this viewpoint is not trying to get people to fight. It’s trying to get people to think. He/she raised some valid questions.

      You say God didn’t cause the earthquake. Okay, but if he knows everything and can do or stop anything he wants, then he could have prevented it and saved 200,000 Haitians from dying, including thousands of children. But he didn’t. Why?

      I’m willing to bet that you are a good and decent person. If you had magical powers and could stop an earthquake from crushing the skulls of thousands of babies, you would stop it, right? What kind of horrible person would you have to be to let let babies suffer and die when you had the power to prevent it?

      So, what does this mean? How do you make sense of it? Are you more moral than your god? Do you love people more than the "God of love"?

      Why do you call asking questions and thinking "sick"? If your god is real as you believe, didn’t he create your brain? Surely he meant for you to use it or he wouldn’t have given it to you, right?

       

       

      • Dred says:

        It’s not for thinking it’s for fighting. If you go back and read this person post from the past you would see he/she did this before. The first time MAYBE the second time is because he/she feel like they never accomplished what they wanted or they relished it so much they wanted to do it again.

         

        SICK

  12. Anonymous says:

    First of all my friend, when you don’t understand something, like the so-called paradox of a loving God killing babies, then the smart and proper thing to do would be to seek out someone who can explain it to you, not write from an uninformed position on CNS (and by uninformed I mean, someone who has not taken the time to sit with the the recognized experts in the field and spoken to them about the question you seemilgy are trying to answer).

    Second of all, your ‘article’ betrays your true position.  You are upset, you’re mad at God, but you are trying to write as if God doesn’t exist.  That is the true paradox.  It is either that God does not exist, and you are not mad at Him, or He does exist and you are mad at Him.  But it’s no use to try to write an article as if He does not exist and your whole demeanor throughout the article is one of anger.

    Third, it is very difficult for us as humans to be given an answer that we do not agree with, and then leave it at that.  If we disagree with the answer we receive then we become dissatisfied, and that leads to more confusing and more anger.  However, the foundation from which you move to ask your question is faulty.  You are trying to rationalize God according to what you know of right and wrong, good and evil.  That will never get you anywhere because the foundation that we must move from is His, not ours, as His knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil (and the causes of disasters like the Haiti earthquake, or the 4 hurricanes that hit Haiti in a row last year)  is superior to ours.

    I really do suggest you speak to a Pastor about this, as you are searching for answers and they can help.  it is okay to be confused, and to even be angry at God, I get mad at Him all the time, He can take it.  But to truly understand what has happened to Haiti, you will have to speak directly to God himself.

    • Anonymous says:

      Why do practically all Christians seem to take everything Atheists say as the Atheist being angry or disappointed with God? Atheism is void of content, not full of anger. We don’t believe in God, why would we be mad at him? I suppose you think that we ‘had’ God in our lives at some point and lost His grace somehow. have you ever thought that maybe we just decided that it’s ridiculous because we can think for ourselves. You have to take the sarcasm where it exists and don’t assume so much. He asks what kind of God would do this, not "Why did God do this?"

      And besides, I thought God didn’t intercede, letting people claim their judgment in the afterlife. If he does intercede, why doesn’t he ever answer the prayer of any single amputee? I’ve said that God answering prayers in the negative is probably the greatest proff Christians have for His existence.

      Religion is a big joke, and we’re all the punchline, whether we believe or not, because it invades all of our lives, even though there’s supposed to be a separation of church and state.

      And let’s talk about genocidal madmen and pick up the Old Testament. Misogyny, genocide, racism, killing for land and for goods. And then what? God changed his ways when he sent Christ? Cuz he couldn’t get it right the first time? Think about your contradictions before you start laying on others about what (aren’t really) theirs. Again, we think; we’re not led on my millenia old magicians who may or may not have existed, who pulled their stories from cultures more ancient from their own, then change to suit society to insure their income stream stays in tact.

      Answering things with "we can’t understand God’s motives" just shows the depth of your ignorance. Using that to answer anything shows that you choose not to understand reality and chalk everything up to a diety so that you can live your life with blinders on. There is no rationale for killing innocent babies, regardless of who did what and when. It doesn’t matter what it is or where it comes from. Haiti is near a tectonic boundary which shifts from time to time due to Earth processes. They’re poor people that build ton shacks as their houses on bad foundations. That’s the reality. The only thing that God has to do with it is the people down thefre who are Christians wondering why God did this to them. Maybe if they had the opportunity and could think for themselves, they’d get the hell out of there.

      I don’t know why I even waste my time responding to such fools; I guess it relieves the pressure behind my eyes…

    • Anonymous says:

      Oh vey…

      There is nothing more hilarious than people who accuse atheists of being "mad at God". How utterly stupid.

      Are you mad at The Joker and Skeletor for thier crimes against society? No, BECAUSE THEY DON’T EXIST.

      An atheist may have issues with religions, religous people, and religious books, but they really can’t be too hung up on God. Because if they are angry at God it would mean they think God exists and therefore they WOULD NOT BE ATHEISTS.

       

       

      • Anonymous says:

        "Because if they are angry at God it would mean they think God exists and therefore they WOULD NOT BE ATHEISTS"

        Er…I think that was the poster’s point. The article does carry with it the overall impression that the writer is angry at God rather than that he thinks he doesn’t exist. He is therefore wishing him away.  Why bother write the article at all if God doesn’t exist? Surely it would be a waste of one’s time to write about a non-existent being in the same way that it would be to write an article, to use your example, about the Joker and Skeletor. Why would he feel the need to convert others to his point of view? Most often you find that such a person has experienced a tramautic event in their life and blame God for it and then in order to deal with the grief of the event declare that there is no God.  There are others of course. One of my very best friends is an atheist but he does not feel the compulsion to convert everyone else to atheism. In the end you have succeeded only in reinforcing the poster’s point.    

        • Anonymous says:

          Nonsense. The viewpoint does not give the impression that the writer is "angry at god". It gives the impression that the writer is frustrated with all the Caymanian Christians who are forever saying that God uses hurricanes to "strike the wicked", curses people across generations, causes earthquakes that kill, etc… …and is a loving god who cares about us.

          If the writer is angry it’s at the people who keep repeating crazy impossible ideas about an all-powerful murderous god who is also forgiving and loving to everyone.

          And it’s stupid to suggest that someone who raises valid questions about religion is a victim of some terrible religous trauma and is acting out of revenge. Okay, maybe a lot ex-Catholics fit that bill, but beyond that, I don’t think so.

          Based on your logic, perhaps we also should assume that every fundamentalist Christian who can’t think straight must have suffered some terrible reality-based trauma? Perhaps they tripped over a science book in primary school and skinned their knee, leading them to fight against reason and skepticism forever.

          • Anonymous says:

            It is the angry tone and ridicule that is most telling about the mindsight of the writer. It reflects the same intoleranceand bigotry of which Christians are often accused. Why can’t you allow others to have a different view from you without describing their views as "crazy impossible ideas" and becoming angry and frustrated with them? You believe that we are wrong, but you do not know that. It is only your opinion.

            It is true that many people only come to know God through experiencing their own weakness. It is in those experiences that God reveals himself, sometimes miraculously, and leaves no room for doubt. If you have had not had those experiences then you will not understand those people.  You may contend that this means that faith is a mere psychological crutch, but instead this may reflect that you are full of pride in your own abilities, your own intellect to solve any problem, your own intestinal fortitude. It is only a humbling experience that will convince you that you are not all that.  Be careful that God does not knock you off your high horse.     

             

  13. Anonymous says:

    Caymanian Conscience, you seem to think you are asking questions that Christians have not asked before.

    You do not realize that all of your comments and questions about the reality of a loving God in face of such disaster were posed long before you. In fact, you sound very much like Job who asked God all these same questions…but don’t worry, Job was as bitter with God, as you are in your message. But of course, you won’t pick up that book and read it. 

    For instance, every Christian has to account for the fact that in order for Jesus to be born, thousands of babies had to be slaughtered.

    You have valid arguments that all Christians should reflect upon, but you must realize that (ironically enough) you are simply rehashing for us the same Scriptures you don’t believe in. 

    By the way, "Adam" (mankind) did not eat a fruit (are you as naive as the Christians you denounce?) what was it that he ate? You couldn’t tell me, because you won’t pick up that book and read it either.

    Not everyone who has faith is naive. So getting rid of faith to solve the world’s problems is not a likely scenario.

    Thanks for your post.

    • Adam Smith says:

      We all know this question has been posed before, that is where the whole nonsense of theodicy sprung up.

      A beleif in a "God" or higher power does not require a belief in an omnipotent higher power.  And if you avoid omnipotence you avoid the need to explain "bad things" complete.

      However Christians do believe in an omnipotent "God".  Cayman Conscience could equally have asked "Why did God kill Estella?". In the competitive marketplace of religions it made for better PR to claim to have the inside track on an omnipotent God and did help explain things like earthquakes (quite directly in their minds).  But going the whole hog and proclaiming that their "God" as an omnipotent "God" does require a belief that God let the bad event happens.  And this leads to the worst kop out of all "We don’t know God’s wants", the theological equivalent of "Every cloud sent down from God must have a silver lining, I can’t see it yet, but God loves us so it is there".

      You equate faith with Christianity.  If you define faith tautologically as Christianity then to reject an onmipotent God is to reject faith.  But faith is much much wider than mere Christianity and the Bible.  It is possible to have faith, in the sense of spiritual or religious belief, and not subscribe to the model that there is an omnipotent "God".

      So your binary argument is itself naive. 

      And as for the Book of Job, it does show your "God" to be a fairly mean sprited beast, killing Job’s family and his servants, torturing a pious man – harcore god love, all for a bet God had with Satan in a Biblical version of "Trading Places".  For those of you who do not want to read the actual book, (and non-Christians I recommend reading the "Good Book" – it is fairly eye-popping experience when read in adulthood with an open mind), I suggest this link to the whole story in picture form.

      http://www.thebricktestament.com/job/index.html

      Be Excellent To One Another!

      • Anonymous says:

        To Adam Smith – re Tues 02/09/10 – 08:10

        I  think you and GOD will have a good debate on ‘Judgement Day’ – with all your ideas and statements it should be very interesting!!  I don’t think it’s fair debating with us ‘mortal beings’. You seem to know the mind of GOD so maybe you can leave the ‘long winding blogging’ for the great day – may be we will all have a chance to listen in!! PEACE.

      • Anonymous says:

        Funny, what you mock as a the "worst kop (sic) out" is the clearest expression of faith. Faith in God is to have a very high opinion of God – his goodness, his love, his power etc. – whatever happens. It is not derived from what we can reason. Your understanding of God is defined by how you view circumstances. You see bad things you think weak God or no God at all. We see bad things we think that there is both good and evil influences in the world and God, for the time being permits evil influences for his own wise purposes.  It goes without saying that God lets bad things happen. It does not follow that he is not omnipotent or not good. You are creating a god in your own image.     

    • Anonymous says:

      Of course the question of a loving god causing/allowing innocents to die horrible deaths has been raised before. The problem is that we are still awaiting a sane answer from the believers who so admire this god.

      It’s stunning, after all these centuries, that millions of people continue to call this being they believe in "the god of love".

      It says a lot that you chose to challenge the trivial point of whether it was a fruit or not that Adam ate in the Garden of Eden. You could have explained why your god lets babies die in pain but you chose to discuss fruit. The author of the viewpoint made a good point.

      A religious nut once told me that Adam ate a fig rather than an apple. Maybe he ate Eve, for all I know. What does it matter? Remember, none of it ever happened. Adam never existed. It’s fiction.

      • Anonymous says:

        Tue 02/09 – 9:35

        If Adam didn’t exist what are you doing here??

        • Anonymous says:

          I’d say he/she is here as a direct result of his/her father impregnating his/her mother… If you’d like to go further back it might take awhile to trace which single-celled organism eventually led to homo sapiens sapiens, but maybe some creature along that time line wouldn’t mind you calling it Adam? I’d certainly hope we all didn’t come from a single person, otherwise our family tree would be a big ‘ole stump…

          • Anonymous says:

            02/09/10 – 18:22

            So it proves GOD’S existence since you say there were ‘creatures’.

            There was also Adam and Eve – just pray and the GOD you don’t believe in will reveal certain things to you! PEACE.

  14. noname says:

    It’s those with belief in a higher power who are normally able to deal with circumstances of evil, pain and suffering and emerge victorious in spirit. This higher power is the faithful and true God that may be made manifest in such circumstances, and was made definitively known in the life and passion of Jesus Christ. The good news of the Gospel is therefore more a practical guide and help than a philosophical panacea for every hard question.

    • Anonymous says:

      It’s those with belief in Allah who are normally able to deal with circumstances of evil, pain and suffering and emerge victorious in spirit. This higher power is the faithful and true Allah that may be made manifest in such circumstances, and was made definitively known in the life and passion of the prophet Mohammed. The good news of the Koran is therefore more a practical guide and help than a philosophical panacea for every hard question.

  15. Anonymous says:

    Dr. Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury wrote a piece about the problem of natural evil in the Sunday Telegraph after the Asian Tsunami in December, 2004. I thought it would be good to reflect on its contents in light of the article. Here is the link:  

    http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/834

  16. Anonymous says:

    To the author of the previous post,

    Your post is not even fit reading – I could barely read a few lines and had enough of your rubbish. Next time try writing something worthwhile or better yet, take some time to read the KORAN and try to find out what ALLAH is really like because you don’t have the faintest clue!!  I do hope HE will forgive you for your stupidity and your misunderstanding of who HE really is and for any blasphemy you may have caused against HIM and misled others. It would be better if you took the time to do some charity work to help these people instead of judging others – and remember  ALLAH made you and HIS purpose for making you was to glorify HIM and enjoy HIM forever. Without HIM you have nothing and can do nothing inspite of what you write, say or think, so please get your mind straightened out  because HE alone is the GREAT JUDGE and one day you will stand before HIM!!

    • Anonymous says:

      To post  Mon  02/08 – 17:24

      GOD bless you too and let HIS light shine upon you and be gracious unto you. May HIS peace be with ‘you’ and ‘everyone’ – as HE gives peace not as the world giveth but peace within the heart. May HE bestow HIS blessings upon you and keep you in HIS care forever and ever. PEACE!!

  17. Anonymous says:

    To the author of this viewpoint ‘Why did God kill Haitian babies by ‘Cayman Conscience’

    Your column is not even fit reading – I could barely read a few lines and had enough of your rubbish. Next time try writing something worthwhile or better yet, take some time to read the BIBLE and try to find out what GOD is really like because you don’t have the faintest clue!!  I do hope HE will forgive you for your stupidity and your misunderstanding of who HE really is and for any blasphemy you may have caused against HIM and misled others. It would be better if you took the time to do some charity work to help these people instead of judging others – and remember  GOD made you and HIS purpose for making you was to glorify HIM and enjoy HIM forever. Without HIM you have nothing and can do nothing inspite of what you write, say or think, so please get your mind straightened out  because HE alone is the GREAT JUDGE and one day you will stand before HIM!!

  18. Anonymous says:

    because there is no God!!! Shifting plate techtonics killed them.

  19. Anonymous says:

    Caymanian Conscience

    Your first problem was listening to Pat Robertson.

    You should listen to Benny Hinn instead.

  20. Chicharon says:

    All the babies died because the people of Haiti were listening to the Rooster morning complaintsshow online and Austin told them not to yell "Earthquake" in the event of an earthquake.

  21. Anonymous says:

    Folks

    To me, God is not a MENTAL CONCEPT, especially, a Christian, Judaism, or Muslim one. Anything that is a concept, belief, or faith, is from the limited human mind!

    To me, God is CONSCIOUSNESS, because without being conscious, how can you be able to think and humanly experience this life? And most naturally, from Consciousness, come existence and all experience. So truth is “what is,” and when you can accept all of “what is,” is when you can accept all of God!

    God is bigger than a Jesus, some human figure, or belief-system; rather, God is REALITY, both beneficial and non-beneficial to us human beings. Folks, we must learn to accept and appreciate what LIFE has offered us, and make the best of it in the here and now.

    Peace

    CNS: Anonymous, if I don’t have time to change the coloured bold font I just delete it. So if you don’t see any of your comments, that’s why.

     

    • Anonymous says:

      Ha! You defined god right out of existence. He’s everything, he’s nothing, he’s everywhere, he’s nowhere. Yeah, I can go along with that.

  22. Anonymous says:

    Compassionate people are not always Christians nor necessarily even religious; but they are the type of humans I generally prefer to have around.

  23. Fed up Caymanian says:

     Caymanian Conscience get a life….instead what you really need to be doing is trying to help set up donation places to help these poor people in Haiti.   God will JUDGE these people so don’t act like you are GOD!   Respect everyones religion.   Where is the brotherly love?  These poor people has been through enough so STOP your BITTERING and start HELPING!

  24. Maybe says:

    Maybe God is evil.

  25. Sweet Rebellion says:

    Caymanian Conscience, I find your viewpoint just as dissapointing as Pat Robinsons statement on Haiti’s tragedy. 

    It is naive and ignorant of you to assume that all Christians believe that "God killed Haitian babies because they deserved it", just as it is ignorant to assume that all Muslims are fanatics and terrorists which view America as the ‘Great Satan’. 

    Nature is a force that no man can stop with guns or bombs.  Natural disasters happen, it’s part of life.  In this world there is suffering, whether it is caused by man or nature.  But there is also joy…and when people come together to help one another whether they are christians, atheists, muslims, buddist, etc…that’s beautiful.  And they shouldn’t be put down or disrespected because of their beliefs…

    The world is a strange place…God IS mysterious…and people have always from the beginning of man…tried to explain the things they can’t understand…and find reasons for this or that.  And it is always easy to put the blame on God.  Why the earthquake happened should not be the question or concern, but how we can help, how we can serve our neighbours in need. 

    As a Christian, I take offense to your comments that are very prejeduce and close-minded.  You cannot condemn a people’s faith because of a few fanatics.  Religion is NOT perfect…it is man-made and therefore should always be questioned…but faith is something beautiful…and for a lot of Haitians it is their faith that is getting them through this tragedy.  There faith in God.

     

     

     

    • Anonymous says:

      If the shoe fits…

      The viewpoint does not say "all" Christians think that way. Of course not every Christian is a fundamentalist. The viewpoint clearly refers only to those Christians who claim that their god controls every detail of everything and is also a good and loving god.

      If you believe that too, then you have a contradiction to deal with. Your god is all about love and justice AND he kills babies by the thousands? Something doesn’t add up. Admit it. Shrugging your shoulders and dismissing it as divine mystery is an insult to all those dead babies.

  26. H says:

     

    When disasters strike, whether of a personal, local or global consequence, often the victims and the observers challenge the existence of God, present their rage and question, “how could a loving God allow such a thing to happen?”
    I have read a fair number of religious books, papers, transcripts, and so on, for all major and many minor religions, and can report that never have I read in any Bible, Torah or Koran, nor any transcript or ancient document, nor any universally accepted ‘word from God’, that Pat Robertson, or the Pope in Rhome, or the Patriarch in Turkey, or guru under a tree, holds the privilege of speaking for God. Some believers in the faiths related to these ‘spokespersons’ may hold out that these leaders are authorized agents, but I would rather lean on the unedited words of the scriptures. Simply stated, stupid statements by Pat Robertson are viewed just as disgusting by intelligent Christians as they are by atheists. Stupid is stupid regardless of one’s belief in a greater power. And whether the Pope says “yes” or “no” to condoms in Haiti, is not a condemnation of God, it is a challenge of the logic of a leadership, right or wrong, but an earthly leadership of a group of believers of common views.
    ‘If I was God, I wouldn’t allow suffering, disaster, hurt or heartache. I’d have everyone living in nirvana land.’ Right. Please, don’t join in on the stupidity. You have an intellect that may be measured as average or superior to the capacity of those around you. But, give me a break.You are suggesting that you have the power of understanding and intellectual powers of reason to challenge the logic of a God believed in by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike. The religions of a ‘book’ teach that God is the Creator of the universe and so much more, but let’s just stop there. Anyone who has the power to create a universe is a bit over the top of any brain power I have witnessed on this earth, and by the way, I have a houseful of Mensa members around me. Not one of them claims to be smarter than God, but with IQs at impressive measure, each one of them firmly believes that God is real, as do I.
    I cannot explain why we are allowed to suffer; I do believe there is no suffering in heaven.
    I cannot explain why God allows us to think and act on our own; I do believe that He gives us the power of choice so that our service in love to Him is glorifying.
    I cannot explain why He would allow His Son to suffer and die, just doesn’t make sense to my level of intellectual capacity. I do believe He gave His Son as a sacrifice for my selfish ways, so that if I accept Christ as my redeemer I can find salvation.
    I don’t think that I can truly say that I accept Christ and never study His teachings nor try to follow His guidance; I do believe that if I follow the teachings of Christ, I will live a happier life here and will meet Him in the afterlife.
    Caymanian Conscience, I suggest that one can better grasp the big picture once one has resolved the personal smaller picture. Understanding one’s own relationship with God is a first step to understanding what a God of love, a God of Justice and a God of Wrath is all about. It’s not about feeling good, it about surrender.
     
     H
    • Anonymous says:

      One does not have to be intelligent to challenge a nonexistent god. It’s much easier than you may imagine. Just think a little bit.

      If you read the Bible and couldn’t find the mean and murderous god that Pat Robertson and his sort seems to love so much, then read it again with open eyes this time. He’s in there, plain as day. Just total up his bodycount or review his guidelines for owning slaves.

      The Bible contains good stuff, horrible stuff, andcrazy stuff. Who are you to declare that your selective reading of the Bible is correct and Pat Robertson’s is not? By what justification do you think you know more than him or anyone else about what counts and what parts shoud be ignored?

  27. Anonymous says:

    The Haitian babies are in a better place than we are.

    As you acknowledged at the beginning of your piece, natural evil brings out good.  

  28. Anonymous says:

    I applaud and encourage the Christians who are helping our fellow brothers and sisters in Haiti (and elsewhere for that matter) in their time of need.  I understand how persons feel the need to blame God when calamities occur, especially when there are innocent victims, but as a Christian I believe that all people were made by God and however He chooses He can take us out of this world; it is not a sin for Him.  He made us and He owns us so He can choose to do what He wants to do with us.  Just as it is completely okay for a potter to make anything out of the clay he works with and then destroy it as long as it is his, so it is the same with God. 

    But many of the tragedies and calamities that occur can also be blamed on the corrupt and inept governments and others in authority who allow their people to suffer in poverty.  Their people are so poor they live in squalor and are the majority that are adversely affected when these types of occurrences happen and that is not the fault of God.   

    Sometimes these events occur so that we can examine our lives more closely and see the need for our salvation is near and also to soften our hearts to help those in need, instead of only thinking of our selfish desires and ambitions.

    • Graham D says:

      You completely, hopelessly, irretrievably, desperately, foolishly, totally deluded idiot. If this is the work of your God, then he/she is a mass murderer, a child killer, a sadist, a genocidal bastard. ‘God owns us’? ‘God can take us out of this world when he chooses’… i don’t f’ing think so!

      Are you saying that the potter you speak of, when you have just spent your hard earns months wages on a vase/bowl/plates/t-pot etc can then come to your house and break them all because the potter made it? Or is that concept only ok for God because we are all his? Well not me, and not my child, so God can piss off and leave us alone, I’ll decide when I leave this world thank you. Your idea is even more deluded than the concept of god existing itself.

      Sin doesn’t cause earthquakes you fool, and all your ‘christian brothers and sisters’ who are merrily promoting to the stars the ‘anonimous good work they do’ would be better off doing something practical.

      You are entitled to your opinion, as am I, so my opinion is, ‘you’re a brainwashed, deluded idiot’ stop wasting time on a rediculous idea, and do something useful.

       

      • Anonymous says:

        How do you decide when you are going to leave this world?

        • Anonymous says:

          Suicide, voluntary euthanasia.

          • Betty says:

            You can add walking home late at night on your own in Cayman.

            • Anonymous says:

              Don’t be ridiculous. You make it sound as if people are regularly murdered who are simply walking home alone late at night. Any murder is one too much, but please don’t hype the situation into something it is not.  

      • Anonymous says:

        Graham D – Mon 2/08- 00:24 –  I am so sorry for you!!

        quote "You completely, hopelessly, irretrievably, desperately, foolishly, totally deluded idiot. If this is the work of your God, then he/she is a mass murderer, a child killer, a sadist, a genocidal bastard. ‘God owns us’? ‘God can take us out of this world when he chooses’… i don’t f’ing think so! …" unquote

        I think the first words in your statement suits YOU perfectly not the writer whom you took so much effort to describe. I do hope GOD will forgive you for blaspheming HIM and don’t ‘take you out’ !!!. Jesus was right when HE said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". In this case ‘they neither know not what they say’.

  29. Forrest Gump says:

    Christians only credit God with the positive things which happen….

    They blame Satan for everything else….

    • Anonymous says:

      Wouldn’t that follow if God is the source of all good and Satan the source of all evil? 

  30. Anonymous says:

    The Humanists over in Haiti helping the wounded and treating the sick and working to ease the suffering and rebuild the lives of their fellow man, without judgement, are predominantly Cuban Communists.  

     

  31. Richard Wadd says:

     Well said, but ……

     ….where-forth does "Humanity" come from, if not from a Religious background?  And where does Religion come from, but from an Instinctive desire to connect with our Creator and Father?

     Tell me how many "Atheist" organisations rushed to the Aid of the Haitian people?

      Humanity is born out of Love, a love for self, as well as a love for others? IF, as Atheists claim, we evolved, and this life as we know it is all about survival of the fittest, then how does ‘Emotion’ come into play?

     Surely, as we see in insects and some animals, Love plays no part in survival of species. Indeed, IF what you say were true, then the out-poring of ‘love’ for humanity that is being rained upon the Haitian people in this, their hour-of-need, is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE to the very foundation of Atheism, for by helping them, we are ensuring the survival of the ‘weak’.

     No my mis-guided friend, ‘Humanity’ is entrenched in Religious values, and as History has shown us, the further we as a Species move away from allowing GOD to play an active role in our lives, the more lost we have become, the more indifferent we become, the less Humanity we have to share. 

     

    • Anonymous says:

      There are too many fallacious statements here to even begin to address. But for sake of at least putting some of your "arguments" in their place and try to keep your idiotic ideas in check, I’ll speak to the more glaring of them.

      Firstly, equating atheism with a belief that emotion/love/communal feelings play no part in the survival of the human race (e.g. moments of "humanity," if you will), is absolutely ridiculous. Semblences of what you term humanity can be found in essentially all manner of lifeforms beyond single-celled organisms. Pack mentality, communal development, protection of the young/mates/weaker members of a group, even recognisable emotional displays among the more highly evolved species such as the great apes – these are all characteristics beneficial to the overall survival of a species. They have nothing to do with religion, or the lack thereof, like you seem to believe. "Survival of the fittest" is a worthless phrase misused since its inception to imply some sort of "inhumanity" with the theory of evolution, which is in itself tragic as the essence of what you term "humanity" is an evolved trait (as evidenced by its development in non-human species).

      Secondly, "humanity is entrenched in religious values?" Tell that to the Inquisition, the slave trade, the Crusades, and 99% of all mass violence on this planet. I would say religion has done far more to separate us as a species than it has brought us together, and done so in a manner quite (as you put it in your post) counter-productive to its supposed purpose.

      And please, please don’t try to claim coming closer to your god will ameloriate indifference. Christianity, and religion in general, has mastered the art of subjugating anyone who is not a "member of the flock" to inferior status since it started. Indifference is born of thinking a person less than you are,and religion does nothing but teach people that those with other beliefs are somehow misguided and "less" than you. Trust me, there is no lack of "indifference" in the history of the Church – I would venture to claim it may have peaked during the height of religion’s influence.

      Finally, please don’t see this as a sleight agaisnt sprituality. There’s nothing wrong with that. But once it all got organised into religions holding certain their beliefs were the right ones… Man, talk about taking a good thing and screwing it all up. Spirituality can be very healthy, whatever belief you might hold. Too bad some power-hungry old men got together and decided to use it to their advantage, but isn’t that always the case?

  32. Shock and Awe says:

    It’s true that people need to balance their belief in certain religions with a little common sense.  But it’s also true many of the words in the Bible give a correct direction, if you ignore the obvious fairy tale stuff.  For instance, if people believe in Adam and Eve and the apple and the snake and also take it literally it’s unfortunate because it is meant to teach a lesson about resisting temptation. The people, Chrisitian and otherwise, who have lent their help to Haiti have done so out of humanity. I agree with that part about a little less talk and a lot more action. Pat Robertson also has to be ignored because he’s a hate filled person and obviously delusional.  It’s the delusions, spread by a bunch of tottering old men like the Pope and his sidekicks, that have confused people for they begin with a sense of faith. Basic beliefs. Then are told all kinds of wackiness.  The problem behind the Roman Catholic religion and quite a few others is that they are patriarchal religions.  Based on some assumption that men were destined to rule the world. Becuase they’re bigger?  Thus, if you allow a group of worn out old men to create rules you end up with aberrations like the Vatican’s stance on birth control.  Men don’t get pregnant. Women do. Therefore they must be punished. Or suffer damnation. If we are to begin creating real humanity amongst us and for our own survival then some of these crazy ideas must be thrown out, along with the very private club that thought them up.  Don’t misunderstand me, I’m all for faith.  Sometimes it’s all we have to hold on to. Many people in Haiti spend their time praying and singing hymns.  That is true faith.  But I don’t see the Vatican, the capitlal of their faith, coughing up any needed cash.  It’s then they back off and smile upon the real Christians who are actually doing good. Although, they don’t mind taking credit for it all.  That type of hypocrisy reeks. I have no problem with Christian organizations in Haiti that are helping the people so don’t put them down.  They prove you can be a good Christian without following the advice or doctrine of people who are completely out of touch with reality and basically de-ranged and in it for themselves.  I would never kiss anyone’s ring.  Especially some old guy who wore a funny hat. 

  33. Adam Smith says:

    Theodicy – one of mankind’s less useful past-times.

    A Christian "God" "allows" bad things to happen because a Christian "God" is a fictional construct of man to incentivise a specific code of moral conduct.

     

  34. Anonymous says:

    Uh, sorry, yes he did…

    Read your Bible. God told the Haitians to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth".

    And don’t forget, many Haitians are Catholic and therefore are forbidden to use condoms or birth control pills. According to the Pope, they will go to hell for it.

  35. Anonymous says:

    Actually, yes he did.  Their church doesn’t approve of birth control.

  36. Anonymous says:

    God didn’t tell the Haitians to adopt such irresponsible breeding practices that their population stands at 10 million lost souls-4 times that of Jamaica-6 times that of Trinidad and one -third that of Canada-in a "country" which possesses or produces relatively little of value

    • Honest Bob says:

      Clearly you are not familiar with the correlation between poverty, lack of education, lack of sexual rights for women (often exacerbated by religious groups who say wives must submit to their husbands) and large families. You probably don’t have to go that far back in your own ancestry, whether you are Caymanian, American or European, to find women having babies once every year or two for their entire adult life.

      In Haiti, because it is predominantly Roman Catholic, the people are also denied access to contraception and abortion because a fabulously wealthy man in a magnificent palace in the heart of Europe says so.

      By the way, "irresponsible breeding practices" – a vile term used by vile people. And yes, god did instruct people to go forth and mulitply.