Cops made to face lie detector
(CNS): At least forty serving RCIPS officers have been forced to take a polygraph test, sources have revealed to CNS. The reason for the testing is unclear but it is said to be causing real concern among serving officers, who believe those who fail will be discriminated against. The police management has neither confirmed nor denied that the testing is taking place and a police spokesperson stated that it is not RCIPS policy “to comment on vetting procedures”. However, it is understood that the testing is ongoing and more officers are expected to be subjected to the lie detector test.
The polygraphs have reportedly been taken by senior as well as junior officers, including some who have served for over twenty years. Several sources have confirmed to CNS that the testing is taking place, but when CNS contacted the Police Association, the body which represents serving officers, a spokesperson said they had no comment to make about the issue at this time.
Details about the questions being asked or about who has passed and failed remain sketchy and it is not known which outside agency is conducting the tests or how much money is being spent on them.
CNS has been told that some officers have been informed that they have failed the polygraph, which has undermined morale. It is understood that some officers have raised fears about their future in the service and how it will affect their careers. They believe, sources say, that promotion opportunities could be denied to those who fail or that they could even lose their jobs on what has been described as a flawed test.
Polygraph results are considered unreliable, even in law enforcement, and of little real value. The tests are widely rejected as pseudo or junk science by the scientific community. A number of variables can impact the results, which are based broadly on changes in breathing rates and pulse as well as blood pressure and perspiration during questioning. It is possible for the results to be wrong both ways. People who can lie well can pass while being dishonest and equally those who are nervous but telling the truth can fail.
CNS is continuing to pursue information about why the officers are being asked to take the polygraph. At present sources were unable to indicate a motive for the decision to make serving police officers undergo the test. We will also be attempting to find out what the information will be used for and what is happening to officers that are deemed to have fallen foul of the lie detector.
Category: Headline News
WikiLeaks is a blessing.Here is information from the Jamaica Constabulary Force.
http://go-jamaica.com/news/read_article.php?id=29955
Do we need to implement similar measures to cater for those who arrived before they did it and for all others?
If 40 people have been tested, then how many of those 40 have passed? That’s the bottom line isn’t it. I don’t believe every officer in Cayman is able to fool a Polygraph, so ifthey’ve all passed – they’re not corrupt, but if they’ve all failed? Even at only 60% accuracy if 40 officer’s fail you can guarantee that 24 are corrupt can’t you?
Simpler idea would be to have a look round and ask how people on an Officer’s wage are able to afford houses, cars and boats like they do? That’s a pretty good indication of corruption wouldn’t ya think? The money comes from somewhere, and if it’s not their wage, where is it from?
I’ll tell you how many passed. Six, yes 6, six. That’s 15%. Way to go Baines! I say again, a vote of no confidence in Baines. Let’s stop his diving holiday now.!
You commenters against Anti-corruption officers need to remember that –
YES these UK investigators lost all the court cases of corruption in the Cayman Islands
YES they went into Turks & Cacois and dethrone their Premier because of corruption
YES they arrested our Judge Henderson wrongfully
YES they are still working through the name Tempura and other names to win a case or cases here, and at least FIND corrupted folk here
YES these UK investigators are trying hard despite mass corruption from where they are from, and that they themselves could have bad apples
YES we are paying them from our own indirect tax monies – not the UK
BUT… you have to look at it from the positive angle. Cayman needs to be under British Rule!
Cayman needs to be a corruption free place like it was before. Look at how bad we have become!
It is always easy to accuse someone of wrong doing, but the law requires that "he who accuses must prove," meaning if you are going to bring an allegation against someone you need to support the allegation with evidence and this principle also applies to allegations against police officers as well. It is all good and well Baines saying there is rampant corruption in the force, but this does not mean it is morally correct or legal to just require officers in large numbers to "line up" and wait to be interviewed one after the other with not being told what the allegations are against them. I have heard a lot about corruption and vetting process, I ask which is it really? either it is one or the other. I read that Baines says polygraph tests are needed because it will be part of the vetting process for applicants to the anti-corruption department. But, I thought in the other hand it was being done because of rampant corruption in the RCIP. Which is it? OK if it is being done because of an application process and all those 40 odd officers failed, well I guess they won’t be going to the anti-corruption department then will they? By the way how many posts are available in that department? 40 odd officers seems a rather high number to "vett".I would imagine the test are long and costly, 40 is a rather high number to "vett". Shouldn’t that figure have been reduced down to a realistic figure,say 10 to save costs and time.
If the tests are evidence corruption is rampant in the RCIP what will happen to those"corrupt" officers? are they going to be dismissed? PSU better get busy and start their investigations, as I haven’t heard any mention of an internal inquiry as yet. Oh, but its rampant corruption we are talking here, which is serious criminal acts, not petty petty internal breaches. These types of allegations need thorough investigations as ultimately they are going to wind up in court. This takes me back to what I said in the beginning, "he who accuses must prove.". So, shouldn’t Judges Rules apply, cautioning and being told ofthe allegations against the officer. At the conclusion of these serious corruption investigations I would imagine someone at the Legal Department would need to consider the evidence to see if charges would need to be brought against the officers. This is how the legal system is required to work. These rights apply to police too. But these tests are scientifically rubbish, even the US Supreme Court has acknowledged that.
It is well documented that good liars pass the polygraph tests, lots of murders throughout the world particularily the US have passed it, only to confess years later. Where does that leave the RCIP then, does mean the officers who failed are bad liars? Maybe.
I do not support the RCIP in all that it does, as they make huge mistakes all the time at all ranks. However, I am in favor of equality of rights for all and peoples civic liberties being recognized and protected. I am sorry but testing of officers under these circumstances does not seem right to me. I do not think we have been told the full truth.
Lastly a good leader always leads by example. Is Baines and his deputies taking the test too?
Bring all the test you want on baby. I’m a cop here. And I have nothing to hide. If you think we are all doing something wrong folks. Look in your back yard.
Yup, drug test me, Then lets do the MLA’s, all the teachers. The list could go on and on. And yes. You will find some that lied and are still doing drugs.
If you really have nothing to hide, what’s all the fuss about???????
As a cop with nothing to hide, you should be worried. The fuss is not about the investigation, but about the use of an "unreliable" test.
You obviously don’t get the concept of "reliability". If something is unreliable, it doesn’t just give "false positives" or "false negatives", it goes both ways.
So, you as an innocent cop may be found to be "guilty" while a guilty colleague will be found "innocent".
This polygraphing will not solve anything.
My only objection is that it’s not reliable and knowing that I would be worried half to death about failing it. I get nervous when people question me anyway. No, I don’t have anything to hide. I’m not on the police force either.
I wish the people here would make up their mind.
Whine after whine from local people about the police not being trustworthy so as a response to deal with unfit officers the use of a lie detector is employed and now local people are whining about the use of a lie detector to ferret out unworthy members of the force.
I suspect the local people with knowledge of crime and family criminal behavior use the untrustworthy police as an excuse for either not really caring or being a coward.
Blame is the currency of choice in this country.
Another way for the Police to waste time…and money. Not to mention being diverted from getting on with actual Police work…or better yet…training.
As these tests are scientifically unreliable, the results will be meaningless. These tests will become more Govt. papers that get filed away…while some people will be smiling all the way to the bank.
Hmmm…
Why all of a sudden this push to find corruption in the Police Service with an inaccurate measure that is not supported by the Privy Court?
It makes me wonder where we are going with this! I thought this corruption probing business was completed after their was no case that was won.
XXXXX
No case being won does not mean corruption does not exist.
Be honest with yourself. You done know corruption is rife in the police force, as indeed it is in government. They all should be probed for corruption. I’d rather lie detectors than nothing at all being done.
By the way, does anyone know how much these tests cost? I understand that approximately 40 officers have had to take it and was just wondering how much money was spent? Also how many persons are here administering these tests and what that is costing, ie accommodation, transportation, meals, etc?
I am not trying to say that if it cost us money, then we shouldn’t carry out these test and keep corrupt officers in the force, but I am just curious.
Police taking a polygraph test. Umm, Well I am sure this is a shock, not only to the police but also to the general public. How I feel, is, there must be a reason behind it that we dont know.
However, my mind reflect that the first thing an officer is asked when he testifies in court is to swear to tell the truth.
"Being truthful" now, I believe that many oficers, have lied to their teeth to get into the force( It is much more difficult for a Caymanian, because, eveybody will know what color under clothes his grandma an grampa wore) However, I believe we all have lied about something, sometime.
A police is a police, but remeber he is still a man. Man sin, and man lie, but there is redemption from it all. No matter what one has done in the past, dont let it destroy your future. Trust in God and the Father of lies will be defeated. Bessed.
As far I know the US has laws and regulations when polygraphs tests can be done on people. I ask, does Cayman have laws and regulations about the use of polygraph tests. Does the RCIP have a written policy about when and how polygraph tests can be done. Mr. Baines said it is for "vetting purposes", I can’t believe all 40 plus officers applied for the anti-corruption unit. I would like to know how many of GOLD COMMAND passed the test, can’t be many I bet, probably none if you ask me. And what about the US , , why are they doing the test, how come it is not trained persons from the UK last time I checked we are still, like it or not, a Crown colony. Why the US, their agenda is different, their priority is protecting US border control, terrorism and breaking up littlle tax havens, Cayman included. What are their long term objectives? Most importantly, now that they have been given access to personal data on officers who failed, who is to say they don’t have copies of it in some covert place in the US. Need to think long term here- how will that affect future travel to US and visa applications. No matter what an officer may have done in the past, they are still human, we all make mistakes. I think this can potentially have huge repercussions for the officers and their families, not just for their careers, but there personal lives as well. Is that really fair?
Really!!!
If you have nothing to hide, this process should not be an issue. I am sure that when you join the RCIP you have a code of ethics and also an oath. Civil Servants are also asked to abide by certain standards of conduct which includes conflicts of interest, unlawful activities and the like. Therefore if the test is addressing any of these issues which they should not be doing, why should they not be dismissed?
1. Are you involved in any way with any illegal activities?
2. Are you aware of any conflicts of interest that you may have in relation to performing you duties as an officer of the Cayman Islands?
3. Do you have interest in or operatate any other business outside of your duties as an officer? If so, do you have written permission from the commissioner?
4. Do you have knowledge of criminal activity that you have not reported?
This list could go on……
Altrrnative employment. This is already permitted in the Police Law. All they have to do is to apply for permission and receive approval .This is the same in many Government departments. A little reading on your part would make this clear.
Business: See above, the same apply.
Only in a truly corrupt country like Cayman would the population be pissed that the police be forced to prove their non criminal intent. THE problem with Cayman is the sheer numbers of criminals and and the positions they hold.
CNS: This comment was flagged for abuse, with the user comment,"While it is acceptable to many to have people bash Caymannians there must be a point where it stops. The kind of comments in the post while not containng foul language shows a lack of respect for the people of this country, brushing everyone with a broad brush. I bet the writer would not dare put his name to his commnet. I certainly can. Regards John Henry Ebanks"
This is not only about corruption. It’s about weeding out corruption in a manner that upholds and protects EVERYONE’S civil rights…I’m sure you’ve heard of that right? Or does your country not have that?
Cayman is just like TCI… Need a helping hand from the Brits to raid the place from corruption and dissolve government from Mac and the constitution. The people should have no voice. Dictator Britain will rule over this rock with an iron fist, and then you will see crime brought down to its knees! I hope this won’ t be too long. Cayman needs a savior now!
Where is the random drug testing that they used to go thru once in a while?
I heard they started that back up as well… very random too,5ttmj
5 lots of officers weren’t too happy!!
I need someone to tell me if these polygraph tests are constitutional. I somehow don’t think so. What law allows this to be carried out? This will give way again for more law suits to be filed and more money for the C I Government to spend, and they don’t have it!!!!!!
I feel that Baines is targeting the Caymanian officers and this should not be allowed to happen. If there was so much compeling evidence of corruption, why didn’t the brillant Martin Bridger and his genuis team find it? Why wasn’t one person convicted?
If there are corrupt officers, then have an investigation and weed them out but everyone knows that polygraph tests are not 100% accurate; it can work for you or against you.
XXXXXX Donnie Ebanks and Franz Manderson need to open their mouths and stand up for us, that is what they are being paid that hugh salary for!!!
Have the two police officers assigned to drive/protect the Premier and Deputy Premier been polygraphed yet?
I’ll bet some really interesting questions could be put to them.
I got the 10 question on the Polygraph Test inside info….!!!!!Yes/No answers>if you answer 6/10 you pass
1-Do you Play illegal numbers?Y/N
2-Did you gave your friend(John Doe) a traffic ticket?Y/N
3-Do you like the new commissioner Mr Baines?Y/N
4-Did you ate Mr Ennis Tuna Sandwich?Y/N
5-Do you promise to protect and serve without guns?Y/N
6-Do you have any party affiliation PPM or UDP?Y/N Pls stated which one?
7-Did you used the patrol car for personal use?Y/N
8-Do you wear skirts if we do order them from Scotland?Y/N
9-Did you steal the half joint that was in my office right on top of my desk?Y/N
10-Did you lie to me all this time?Y/N
HAHAAAA….that’s funny…."Did you ate Mr. Ennis tuna sandwich?"….ROTFL…
Forget ye not! We were told that Operation Cealt was continuing, despite assurance that Tempura was closed. Personally, I say that Tempura should have continued, were it not for the derailment cause by the mismanagement of the ‘what’s-his-name’ joker who led the team. Nonetheless, while polygraph tests may not be admissible in Court, I would imagine that the Commissioner must have received HE’s (& FCO’s) permission to conduct these; suggesting that it must be admissable under the Police Law or some related Regulation. That being presumably the case, I can’t see HE or FCO making the same mistakes of the past and leaving any loopholes.
If this scenario is what has played out, there is obviously a reason and because Tempura was derailed does not necessarily mean that the original reason has been negated; someone knows something.
At the very least, the polygraphs could be used in initial interviews so as to prevent RCIPS hiring the likes of the Canadian officer who stole money from the NS Primary School – it was later revealed that he had been previously dismissed from the Toronto City police for similar dishonesty before he came here. There may be others like him.
I applaud Commissioner Baines (and HE behind him) for using any legal means of improving the standards of policing in Cayman.
Perhaps the Department of Immigration should also consider polygraphs as a part of their recruitment process.
If they are permitted, thats simple enough to prove. have the relevant authorities produce the regulations which tey are being administered under. Otherwise, anythign that involves any person polygraphed in the future, e.g., lack of promotion, they claim ‘unfair treatment via an innaccurate ssytem’ and, wham, bam, more penalty money down the drain.
Let us never forget:
Tempura was mismanaged, derailed and generally cluster-xxxxed by:
1. the so-called "leadership" (NB: sneer quotes) of the notorious Martin Bridger, may his name forever be synonymous with enduring shame; and
2. the ill-advised and ill-advising Martin Daniel Polaine, may we be ever grateful for his disbarment, and may he stay that way forever.
Please remember to pause and SPIT upon the ground at every mention of these two.
[Hork, Hork]
Let us never forget.
Relax folks. This is just a part of what the previous Governor started. You dont think for a minute that because he is no longer here that his evils would fade away.
Operation Tempura and Cealt will never go away until it looks like the ex Gov was really on to something.
TO: COMMISSIONER BAINES
In regard to our officers being forced to commit to a polygraph test. Would you please put the minds of the people to rest by stating publicly which Section and Chapter of the Law is being used to support such actions? We are all baffled and maybe there is something we are missing here or maybe need to learn will you help us out please? I was involved in drafting the constitution now enacted and I am not aware of any such disciplinary exercise or order supported in the Constitution of the Cayman Islands or on our law books otherwise.
I would like to add that I do hope that this order of discipline has nothing to do with the officers exercising their democratic right in confronting you or speaking out against you when you made embarrassing comments against them recently.We pray that this is not some kind of psychological submission choke hold or discipline with the intent to subdue, conquer and control our officers? If so we are very disappointed. For this can only further disrupt the faith and trust that we have placed in our officers and in you as Commissioner of RCIP . At this time in our History Citizens and residents alike really do not need to hear an announcement each time officers are disciplined, its not really our business in every instance. It’s bad for Public relations and bad for RCIP community relations.Overall bad for national security.
For the past several months the public has been making strides in their efforts to support you and the RCIP in various ways to help our local enforcement achieve their goals in fighting crime.
This recent report is very troubling. Your Internal Affairs should handle these matters behind closed doors and in your own RCIP Ambudsman Tribunal or Governors Office private hearing. To impose on the trust and confidence of the public by airing the dirty linen , soiled or smelly underwear of our RCIP is really not quite what we need at this time in our history. It is not fair to the rest of us. Seeing that tax payers have not even been fully recovered both emotionally and economically from Operation Tempura and all the other investigative operations designed to weed out what some call corrupt Police. We are not so sure if that is really the case seeing that Officer Burman and others is proven to be very much "innocent" and has not yet been compensated his millions for his embarasment, pain and suffering. Not everyone looks upon the RCIP officers in a bad light you, most of us really care about them and realize they are civil servants that try to perform their duties the best they can, with what little resosources they have just like everyone else. If they have no protection and no one is watching their back then who is watching the backs of the people in the community who need the RCIP officer’s protection on a daily basis 24 hours a day 7 days a week and 365 days a year ? We must give our RCIP more respect that is due them and handle their affairs with a little more discretion and confidentiality. the public really should not be hearing about this. It is very troubling. where do we go from here?
CNS: Ms Florence, while some of your points may be valid, to be fair to the commissioner, it should be clear from the article that no announcement was made by the RCIPS and, when questioned by the press, the RCIPS refused to make a statement. The media obtained the news of the polygraph testing from other sources.
Who are you talking about when you say ‘We’ – Florence?
Ms. Florence.. With respect..What’s with all the ‘We’ comments.! Please speak for yourself and leave speculation and conjecture alone.
Free speech, Yes please. One sided commentary, No thanks.
"I was involved in drafting the constitution now enacted" etc: – I do hope not because your grammar is shocking! For example, what is an "ambudsmen"?
Florence. Please don’t pretend to be the people’s advocate when nobody nominated you into that capacity.
I don’t share your sentiments. I support Baines and hope he rolls this out across the entire police force, and only wish as someone else has suggested already, that it could be rolled out across all the MLA’s too.
Ms. Florence, could not have said it better. Thanks for your stance. Someone is looking out for the wrongfully accused!
🙂
I feel that the CoP is doing all these things to divert the public from the poor job he is doing on the streets of Cayman. We can all see that crime has increased; he is a good talker but we are not seeing any results from the brilliant ideas that he has.
Can we do the MLA’s next?
What an excellent idea – we should write this requirement into the law and see if they can squirm their way out of that one!
Can we throw in an IQ test as well?
I bet 90% of the MLAs would fail an IQ Test! If only I were a betting man!
and if only gambling were legal, LOL!
Good! Make some of them sweat for their injustices to some people! What goes around, comes around!
God doesn’t like ugly!
Thank you Mr Baines!
Will there be any cops left?
i see no fault in this as an officer you should be law abiding, it would be interesting to find out what kindof questions are being asked and which the officers are failing..if you are not guilty of anything presently it should be no reason not to take the test.. this is good..its just like random drug testing it should be done
You are obviously putting your faith in a polygraph being correct – tell the truth and you shall have nothing to fear – but what if the test is wrong?
Best guess, as no-one is sure, polygraphs are wrong 10% of the time, some putting them wrong 40% of the time, not exactly something you can rely on is it?
Want to take a drugs test that shows a false positive every tenth time, what about every second or third time?
Whilst I understand all the thumbs up on ‘doing something’, weeding out the problems, wouldn’t it be better to use a reliable method to do the weeding.
What happens if you get a bent cop passing the polygraph, do the normal suspicions that should prevelant get dropped – oh he’s ok he passed the polygraph!
Except that, unlike drug tests (which are scientificaly validAFAIK) the person best able to pass a polygraph is the best lier. While interested in what is being asked I woudl be more interested in why it is being asked (what will the results be used for) and who is administering it?
Unbelievable!!
So an Officer can lose their job over a test that is inadmissable in evidence in Court? How can they force Officers to take the test? I would refuse and demand to know which police power they are using. I’m sure there isn’t one. If anyone loses their job over this I can see the Commissioner (Government) being sued for unfair dismissal.
"So an Officer can lose their job over a test that is inadmissable in evidence in Court?"
Where does it say that?
But guess what, in the real world people lose their jobs all the time with "evidence" that would not stand up in court.
Lie Detector tests are not admissible as evidence in Court (British Courts that is). The article says that some ‘sources’ believe they could lose their job or be overlooked for promtion.The reason the test is not admissible in evidence is because the results are not reliable.
To lose your job or promotion because you failed an unreliable test seems very unfair to me.
Professional Standards Detectives should not be relying on an unreliable test to weed out the corrupt ones.
Maybe a new independant ‘Operation Tempura’ style investigation is what is needed and after they’ve finished with the RCIPS they should move onto the Government!
Obviously, the work place is not a court of law and different "rules of evidence" apply.
What happen to all these LLB’s i keep hearing about who can’t even pass a simply polygraph examination. Come on now we got to do better Cayman. if this was done for all who join the RCIPS. We would have stopped this situation from becoming a serious problem now.
Don’t jump to any conclusions believing that this is necessarily a good thing. There is nothing in the Police Law that says that the "Commissioner ‘shall’ or ‘may’ conduct a polygraph test of any officers under his command and if they fail terminate them" . You police haters out there just watch how this will play out before you start coming to a conclusions. I hope it is not another means being used to terminate Caymanian and others from the RCIP. I also hope if its a new policy or law it will be used whenever they go overseas to the UK, Jamaica, Canada and Caribbean to recruit new officers.Your comment about LLB degree or any other degreesfor that matter, is very immature and naieve. There is no comparison between an LLB degree and a polygraph test.An 8 year old child would know the difference. Maybe you don’t know, but a polygraph test is not a test in math or English or Biology. Think before you open your mouth, or rather write with your pen . If you dont know ask a friend or go to the dictionary and, while you are at it, use the same computer to google the words.Many officers have job and other stresses and if they fail the test don’t necessarily mean that they are undesirable or currupt.I would have concern myself if I was an officer or a civil servant. Can any one blame the police personnel for feeling concern for ther futures in the RCIP? This wil certainly further demoralise the members of this Service. Renember you don’t have to fire a person, you can use various methods to pressure them and one of these straw will definitely break he camel’s back. They will come to a point where they can’t take no more. Posters keep an open and objective mind to these things . Lets see what will come of these actions.
Sounds like a bunch of lame excuses to me and you need to press spell check "renember." The only stress i see is a bunch of people who seem to have great difficulty being honest and telling the truth, that shouldnt be all that hard now is it, Since you are sworn to uphold the law or did you forget. Your anticipated threat of calamity as to the outcome of this situation is rather worrying. Finally nobody was comparing LLB’s with polygraph test you same to have lost the plot. However one would think if you understand the educational standard of the law degree you would be able to understand why honesty and intergrity are required to uphold the laws of the land and why we need to root out corruption in an institution such as the RCIPS. Mr Baines is unnah match!
What does having an LLB remotely have to do with someones ability to pass or fail a lie detector test? You saying they need LLB’s to lie or tell the truth now?
I don’t know about all that scientific mumbo jumbo but i will say this. The truth is merely a matter of fact whereas honesty is a question of attitude. There was no need to bring such test we could have told him that some couldn’t pass this test, they have not told the truth for so long it is now a prerequisite for promotion and leadership in the RCIPS. What Mr Baines has simply uncovered is that the precious truth is surround by a bunch of dangerous lies and wicked liars. I applaud his attempt to "Fix" the problem that many have come and ignored, for far too long. All who have tried have failed and left, i wonder will that now be his fate. Now he got a serious problem?
Now is the time for us to stand by our RCIP, no one knows where this is leading to? It could be another UK induced investigation leading to another ‘BRIDGE TO NO WHERE!"
at our tax payers expense!
so don’t jump up and say things against our cops again.
Why don’t the UK investigate their crooked cops?
Err, umm, the UK do. They also have a police complaints commission so public concerns can (and will) be addressed. Baines is simply trying to bring the RCIPS into this century like everywhere else already is.
Keeping a police force "clean" is an important and necessary task.
Given the amount of money that is involved in the drug trade, the danger of bribery is always a possibility. For example, $10,000 to a drug lord is pocket change; to a middle class police officer, it is a lot of money.
Another aspect is a drug lord’s risk management plan. I makes very good business sense for a drug lord to get one or more of his troops into the police force so that he/she has inside information regarding police plans. Remember, back in 2001 I believe, cocaine valued at $5 million went missing from the George Town police station. A security camera was broken and the thieves knew exactly where to jump the fence undetected. That smelled of an inside job.
A lot of crime is drug related. The only way to stop the crime is to legalize drugs. Alcohol and cigarettes are legal and they are addictive drugs with all sorts of significant social costs.
Legalization versus prohibition is not about picking a "good" solution. It is about picking the lesser of two evils.
I tells me that management are trying to weed out the bad seeds…… if you are an honest police officer, this mild intrusion should not worry you to much, if you are not, then your days could be numbered, finally!
It isn’t a ‘mild intrusion’ it is a major one. The test has been proven to be unreliable.
If you got an inaccurate result you’d be branded a liar and you may lose your job.
All Officers who have yet to take the test should refuse, they can’t sack everyone.
Wouldn’t the investigators be better utilised trying to catch the armed robbers rather than trying to catch Officers out with a flawed test?
Well you all obviously have never worked where you have a position of trust . When i went to work in the states a mere jewelry salesman job is polygraphed. So why not police? Finally an excellent way to get some trust issues resolved. They should start doing it for every job in cayman that has anything to do with cash.
The answer is that the tests are unreliable.
I had experience researching the polygraph test for a story some years ago and you can cheat – it’s that simple. There is absolutely no way you can guarantee the honesty of the subject being tested.
An honest person can fail the test and with very little practice crooks can lie their proverbial a**e off, even on basic things like names. We found that in the USA it was even possible to obtain tuition to enable you to pass (strictly speaking not to fail) work-related polygraphs.
Don’t believe me? Ask Aldrich Ames, he passed two CIA polygraphs while working as a Soviet spy.
At the end of the day there’s still no substitute for a good old-fashioned face-to-face grilling – but that wouldn’t make the headlines, would it?
For goodness sake people. This is about corruption! How many times have we seen on these pages people saying that cops are corrupt – this is about finding out if they are. It’s what we’ve been asking for – a professional, honest, reliable and effective police force. CNS I am very dissapointed to read the article – the comments you make about Polygraph tests are strongly biased – it is certainly not correct to describe these as pseudo or junk science. Polygraph tests are widely used in areas of national security and intelligence in most western democracies in order to ascertain if employees are reliable and not corrupt. Please report these stories impartially.
Pseudo-science? nonsense! that brings to mind UFO’s and phrenology. Watch out, CNS, your bias is showing… at the very least, should you choose to denigrate polygraphs, give us some stats to back it up. it is VERY difficult to stay cool enough to fool the test when lying- one must be practiced at it.
CNS: Suggested reading: Polygraph Testing Too Flawed for Security Screening
"The federal government should not rely on polygraph examinations for screening prospective or current employees to identify spies or other national-security risks because the test results are too inaccurate when used this way, says a new report from the National Academies’ National Research Council."
The Art of Deception: Polygraph Lie Detection
Would you submit to a polygraph, knowing that the results could yield a false positive and not know the outcome of failing?
It’s not about someone ‘beating the test’, it should surely be about the consequences of falsely failing a test.
At best a Polygraph is 90% accurate – from those that make and use the machines. So 1 in 10 could show a false positive for lying. Polygraph opponents put the accuracy at around 60% or little better than chance.
So I ask again would you submit to a test that could have real consequences with someone flipping a coin to see if you were telling the truth?
I am of course using the last statement to an extreme. These things are known to be unreliable. If they weren’t surely we wouldn’t need police, courts, lawyers, or Judges – just hook everyone up to a lie detector and be done with it.
Respectfully Suggested reading for CNS: The Validity and Reliability of the Detection of Deception. It discusses the relationship between personality, biological and circumstantial factors and their effect on polygraph results, showing none of the variables of sex, age, arrest history, MMPI results or # of times taking a test previously, among other things, in any way affected the outcome of the lie detector tests. As well, the US Dept of Defense conducted its own study, determining polygraphs were a "reliable and valid tool for determining truth or deception when used by properly trained polygraphists." (read The Art and Science of the Polygraph Technique).
The article in CNS needs to be more impartial. And yes, I would have no problem taking my own polygraph test. Any erroneous result would be rectified by a second taking of the test.
CNS: Note though that the study you suggest was conducted in 1976 and the book cited was written by a polygraphist (someone who makes their living from taking polygraph tests).
Actually, you don’t know that this is about corruption. Thepolice haven’t said what this is about. And passing a polygraph doesn’t prove you’re honest, or any of the other things peole want in a police officer. just that you didnt’ fail the test. – Carefull, your bias is showing.
Corruption is RAMPANT in Cayman folks.
This is the only explanation for how the drug trade has been so massive and so lucrative over the years. This is a tiny place – "luck" is not the greatest tool of the profiteers.
I suspect that Baines is hell-bent on pulling it (corruption) out from the root.
Sure, a few toes may be stepped on in the process but hey – you guys are cops, notschool teachers – Cop up.
Such exercises are for the better long term good of the society – clearly it was not designed to demoralize or unfairly criminalize serving officers.
Sit down Whodatis, because I am going to agree with you completely!
Everyone acknowledges that the force needs to be shaken up, but each attempt to do so is met with cries of outrage. We’ve seen the results of an incompetent police force; isn’t one definition of idiocy doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? Give Baines a chance to sort things out and allow a reasonable amount of time to judge the results.
Agreed.
Happy Wednesday, O’Really!
:o)
Bingo!
Whodatis nailed it on the head.
Haven’t you all wondered why drugs are such a problem down here? The island is a speck, everyone knows who deals and wheels in the drug trade and knows where to go. Now how come the police can’t do anything about it?
Hmmm, I wonder……Insider information? Corruption?
They have dogs, they have the resources, the have a team dedicated to drugs, yet its still a huge problem….
Operation Tempura strikes again?
Don’t be quick to write off the concept. It’s not all junk science. They should be checking the non commissioned staff who handle police reports etc. They can be sources for leaked info.
Two basic questions should be as follows:
1) Have you ever given information about individuals who made reports or gave information to police to anyone in an unauthorized manner?
2) Since working for the RCIPS have you ever committed an arrestable offence?
That would begin the cleaning process of the rot that we all know exists still within the ranks. The majority are clean but we still have holes.
I agree the accuracy of police reports compiled mostly by non commissioned officers is a serious issue.
There needs to be a IT tracking system for police reports and evidenciary document produced so any subsequent changes made to reports or witness testimony canbe traced by time and date and who was the person logged on and made the changes or edits to the document.
News flash: Polygraph tests are an unscientific sham. Organizations such as the CIA and FBI may use them to intimidate and coerce stupid people into admitting things but they do not work as advertised.
It’s been shown by skeptics that they are easily defeated by informed subjects and the manner in which they are administered and results read vary wildly by operators.
Somebody should tell the RCIP this so they stop wasting money on them.
KGB Agents also: The KGB agents in the former Soviet Union communist States also use this on people the they think were US spies. An innocent person with a week constitution or suffering from hypertension or stress or work fatigue could easily fail the test even though they commited no crimes or involved in any any curruption. Should this person lose his or her job? You be the Judge.
Is polygraph evidence even admissible here?
If so, (and if you like science and bother reading research) it should not be.
Well, why not demoralize an already-demoralized, half-competent, poorly-trained and poorly-serving organization any further? Obviously, they are lost for answers. The lie detector test only tells you one thing – the Commissioner is whack! He is completely out of touch with reality. Time for another pay raise and promotion.
You sir are Outa whack and need to get off your high horse. This is a really good thing. We have a lot of bad apples in the service and they are bringing down the rest of the force. Doing "nothing" and patting bad officers on the back will NOT build morale among the good ones. Weeding out the plague may be painful, but it’s cathartic. That is a long term positive for Cayman. Very smart move in my opinion.
Idjut – is you who is out of touch with reality – a move like this is long overdue. I applaud you again Mr Baines lets turn the RCIPS into the professional institution it was originally intended to be, instead of the corrupt organisation it has become over the years.
CNS: "more officers are expected to be subjected to the lie detector test"
And I guess if you should ever decide to call on your lawyer before taking the test, you won’t have a job the next day!
SO SAD FOR CAYMAN IF THIS IS THE CASE
Lets hope this is not some staged exercise to incriminate our dear cops and use it as an alibi to bring in a million British Police once again costing us millions of dollars .And a "New kind of Investigative Operation opened up putting us back 20 years again! It seems that they have to keep some kind of investigative operation going to keep us under their foot! As we make two steps forward, we make l00 steps backward it seems.
While the EU & United Nations is pressing the UK to let go of enslaving her colonies via independence or advanced governments, the UK has a way of holding onto them by disrupting and uprooting the stabilized systems . Turks and Caicos is a prime example. The UK have their own way of throwing around their power and making the systems of political stability that a leading colony and a financial leader such as ours take great pride in feel suddenly insecure.
At the same time Mother Country is competing for our business!
That’s some eye opener isn’t it?
Oh gosh, not only do we have police officers who have to go back to school to learn how to read, write and speak, now we have police officers who are failing a lie detector test lmao. I am sure other countries can read our blogs and are laughing their heads off. No wonder the criminals have taken over Cayman, they are smarter then the Police!!!!
In many corrupt countries, the criminals join the police force and take it over. It’s a great power base and makes good business sense.
To avoid police corruption, a country needs multi-level and competing checks and balances that is free from political tampering. Who watches the watchers?
Keeping the police on the "up and up" takes cooperation from the Gov, the Commish, the politicians and community leaders. It is hard work that never ends.