Solutions vs politics
I write to discuss the acute political, financial and reputational issues facing our country and the need for our collective behavior and decisions to reflect the seriousness of the situation. The focus must be on solutions. I will deal first with the political issues. When I resigned as a member of the PPM in 2010 I said that we had made a mistake in embracing the Caribbean model of party politics and encouraged other party members, from both parties, to admit our collective mistake and to change course.
It is important for us to recognize and acknowledge when our country started on this pronounced downward trajectory. It was in 2001. It is no coincidence that 2001 was also the year that we embraced and introduced party politics in Cayman.
Since 2001 both parties have been focused on remaining in power and winning the next election. Prior to 2001, when there were no political parties, governments were traditionally given two terms to implement their agenda. Since party politics came into being good governance and effective policy making have taken a nosedive and voter frustration has grown exponentially, which has resulted in each government being given one term only. Our society has become more divided and the unity between Caymanians and expatriates, which was hitherto the cornerstone of our success as a country, has all but disappeared. There is widespread political victimization as well as politicization of our civil service. Our continued denial of these glaring realities is the reason why the downward trajectory continues.
The solution to our political problems must therefore be to vote in the 2013 general elections to elect a coalition government consisting of a good mixture of candidates and begin the process of disbanding political parties. This will force the 18 MLAs, irrespective of their political views, to work together to form a government. You would still have the all important check and balance of an opposition to government when members, unrestrained by party rules, feel the need to oppose government policy.
I now turn to the current budget crisis. We all know how we got here and both the PPM and the UDP must share in the responsibility. As citizens we must also acknowledge some responsibility as our demands on government for services and favours are very hard for the party in power to resist. It is important that we all acknowledge that nothing is for free and every service and favour provided by government must ultimately be paid for by all of us. Government does not automatically generate money by its mere existence. So nothing is free and we must all pay, one way or the other, directly or indirectly, for government to operate.
Tinkering with our revenue and expenditure, such as was last proposed by government, will do nothing to balance our budget in the medium term. If we continue this band aid approach the UK will never approve our budget and could ultimately assume absolute control of our finances by suspending section 54(1) of our 2009 Constitution which mandates that a Minister “shallbe charged with responsibility for finance.”
The government must focus on expenditure and implement a medium term plan to bring it in line with what is considered sustainable for a country with our tax regime and GDP.
Let us look at some significant spending that could be eliminated from our budget during the next two financial years. It is important to note that I do not have access to the government’s draft budget so I can only make recommendations about what I have personal knowledge of.
The size of the civil service must be reduced but that can only be done over time and on a phased basis through collaboration with the private sector but planning and execution must commence now. It would be wrong, for many reasons, to convert a large number of civil servants to ‘unemployed status’. This would result in unnecessary hardships on our families and cause a further downturn in our economy as those salaries are removed from circulation locally. At the same time it would increase government’s expenditure as more and more people seek government assistance to survive.
Therefore, an integral part of the programme must be to transition some civil servants to the private sector so as to ensure that their income is protected while simultaneously reducing government’s expenditure and providing labour for the private sector. The aim should be to reduce government’s expenditure on salaries by $10M annually over 5 years, which would represent a total reduction of $50M in expenditure. On the basis of an average annual salary of $39,000, this equates to the migration of approximately 256 civil servants to the private sector annually over a 5 year period for a total reduction of 1,280 civil servants. With an average of 19,000 work permits in existence annually, this is easily achievable.
The following additional actions could be taken to reduce expenditure :
- Cayman Turtle Farm Island Wildlife Encounter – Close all components of this attraction except the Turtle Farm related operations. This would allow for the subsidy to be reduced from $9M to $1M, an annual savings of CI$8M;
- Tourism Attractions Board – Privatize its operations, including Pedro Castle, the Botanic Park, Hell and the Craft Market and save approximately CI$1.4M in annual subsidy;
- Cayman Airways – The Panama and Dallas routes should not have been launched in the middle of a budget crisis and a global recession. Immediately discontinue these routes and eliminate the approximately $1.5M marketing and operational budget associated with them. Reinstate the implementation plan for the Lufthansa Consultants Report which was commenced in 2008 and this will save the airline approximately $2M annually. This should convert into a $2M reduction in government’s annual subsidy to Cayman Airways;
- The Nation Building Fund – This has been justified on the basis that our children need money for scholarships and our churches need money for ‘nation building’. Yet we have properly functioning Education Council and Ministry of Tourism Scholarship programmes with properly established criterion awarding record numbers of scholarships annually. Our churches have an obligation to act as a moral compass for our society rather than inadvertently promoting greed through accepting government’s patronage. Any money given to churches for infrastructure projects, such as hurricane shelter space, is easily justified but must be properly funded through government’s capital development programme and not through this illusive creature called a “Nation Building Fund”. Eliminate it and save $4M annually;
- Government Administration Building – Mandate all remaining government agencies that were slated to move into the new Government Administration Building to do so withoutfurther delay. This could save the government approximately $2.5M in lease costs annually; and
- Health Services Authority – Implement and enforce more prudent policies and eliminate the significant waste by mandating the HSA to deliver its services within the $8M annual subsidy. This would save on average $12M annually by eliminating the need to provide large allocations of supplementary funding. Health care subsidies to the HSA have continued to increase to unsustainable levels growing from a total of $17M in 2009/10 to $19M in 2010/11 to $27M in 2011/12.
On the revenue side, if sufficient resources were made available to the right agencies the proposed revenue measures for this year would be unnecessary.
I am advised that if sufficient resources were deployed to enforce the Proceeds of Crime Law, $60M – $70M could be deposited into the government's treasury in this financial year alone. Why is this being ignored ?
My recommendations, if pursued, could potentially save the government $41.4M annually and much more over time. Revenue in this 2012/13 financial year could improve by $60M – $70M.
Finally we must look at what must be done about the significant reputational damage that has been caused to our country in recent times when good governance issues have arisen and when announcements about direct taxation sent shockwaves throughout our local economy. This presented yet another platform for negative international media coverage about the Cayman Islands.
Much damage has already been done to our economy but there is no point is crying over spilled milk. Let’s clean it up! There is an urgent need for the private and public sectors to collaborate and to launch a robust and cogent international public relations damage control campaign.
Premier McKeeva Bush’s insistence on remaining in office pending the outcome of the three police investigations must be addressed decisively. It is obvious that both political parties are impotent in addressing the issues. We should not expect our situation to improve absent leaders who do not have the courage to tell our country the truth and to do what needs to be done to fix our problems.
It is wrong to try to rush police investigations for reasons which are well known to law enforcement professionals. The only alternative, therefore, is for the business sector to call for the premier’s removal from office. The business sector is in a position to facilitate this and to prevent further reputational damage to our country. I call upon them to do so as a matter of urgency.
I sincerely hope that my recommended solutions will be objectively considered and that anyone who may feel personally offended by anything I’ve said will understand that this is bigger than any one of us. This is first and foremost about Cayman.
Charles Clifford is a former minister of tourism, environment, investment & commerce.
Category: Viewpoint
Sorry Chuckie but what little good you did during your term was far outweighed by what you did NOT do and by the not so good things you did. You have no say in the matter now because you are still a part of the problems you created or the problems you did nothing about which we are having to try to rectify so thanks but no thanks. Sit down and shut up. I can't believe you have the audacity to pipe up about anything. You are a day late and a dollar short and better to be forgotten in the realm of politics like many others I hope will follow you in 2013. After all who does not know that the Turtle Farm amusement park, the Brac Hurricane Hilton, the much too big and extravagant new schools, the Panama and Dallas routes, the new Government House, the trips overseas to watch Charles Whaittaker fight etc. are not a total WASTE and misuse of funds????
Well lets hear your solutions bright spot or are you just a Chuckie hater ?
Charles was voted out of office and left the PPM to sulk. Now he is seen as savior by some. Will we ever learn.
Will we ever learn not to elect McKeeva ? Thats the real question ! Chuckie warned us about the corruption. Its a pity that people like you didn't listen isn't it !!!
This might be a bit off-topic, but what did The Perpetually Dishonourable (Big Cheese) Bullxxxxer mean when he was on about milk and carrots? Is there a meaning hidden in a cultural background that I can't access from the City, or has he simply lost his mind? That's been bugging me as I watch the collapse. Any help?
Is there no one to help? I guess we'll have to infer insanity. Why did you elect him?
Find out what is raising the cost of living and doing business in the Cayman Islands, just don't stop at government, inquire the many factors, and you will find our economic problems. Then ask yourself the question, is it all worth it? Is change ever possible? I guarantee you will find the real solution. It is not in them… It is found in you.
Three questions Mr Clifford –
Relating to suggestion 1. Why didn't you do this when you were the Minister involved?
Relating to suggestion 2. Why didn't you do this when you were the Minister involved?
Relating to suggestion 3. Why didn't you trim off unprofitable CAL routes when you had the chance?
Staying with CAL, wasn't it part of your portfolio when, amongst other things, one customer (not naming them but I think we all know who it was and they weren't the only one) was allowed to get away with running up an unsecured CI$220K airfreight tab before anyone reacted?
Incidentally, in May 2010 the Lufthansa report into CAL, which comes from your period as Minister but has been kept secret, was reported as having been used to make significant changes in the way CAL was being run. It would be interested for it to be made a public document so we can judge for ourselves what is, or is not, going on.
I'm not saying that all of this is not valid comment but there's a definite element of 'smoke and mirrors' here.
As a long time KX employee let me remind you that Mr. Clifford cut the non-performing Houston and Ft. Lauderdale routes and launched the JFK and DC routes and relaunched the Chicago route. He also established a proper HQ for KX which has saved significant sums on leases. There is more but I dont have time now……back to the line !
The purchase of Sammy's Inn has officially saved CAL not more than CI$100K a year, that's Chuckie's official figure as of December 2007. Didn't make sense at the time, still doesn't.
It was purchased for US$2.85 million, a figure later challenged as too high. An additional CI$2.43 million (US$2.96 million) was spent to renovate the property, including CI$257,000 to fill and pave the new car park on the adjacent property.
OK, so that's the best part of US$6million laid out to save CI$100K a year, you don't need to be a CPA to say that doesn't add up. If the money had been sensibly invested the return could have been far higher. The move may have made logistical sense but financially it was a loser.
At the time Deloitte put a value on the re-vamped property of US$6.76 million. In the current market, with large amounts of vacant office space, I'll bet a 'For Sale' sign on it will sit there fading and rotting for years with 'Price Reduced by Seller' underneath and you still won't get any buyers so this is just another paper asset.
The route changes? Well Houston conflicted with another operator and Ft Lauderdale was a non-starter from day one so cancelling them wasn't exactly rocket science. If I remember rightly there were also equipment problems servicing these routes.
As for the JFK, ORD and IAD? Are they (were they) really money makers for CAL flights or would it have made more sense to operate then as code-shares with major US operators? Based on current operating figures code-share makes a lot more financial sense.
Congrads to Mr Clifford for a well laid out article.
It handles the problem from the side that the FCO is looking at in the cost of running the country. The UDP is simply looking at making sure that they can pay the bills. Meaning that the cost of living in Cayman will continue to spiral out of control.
I would add two areas to consider to cut the CS.
Health Services
With Shetty coming on line in the near future and with Dr Thomplinsons hospital we can cut back on certain services that they have in common. For example I understand that Shetty will be heart specialist that limit those type of services at the hospital.
Roads Authority
Why not outsource this to a paving company. The road by Royal Bank would surely have been fixed by now.
What is missing from Mr Cliffords article is alternative sources of funds. This is such a problem area that I feel the Government should arrange to have a number of meetings on the various alternatives and then have it in a referendum on election day.
That way the people cant complain about Government itself.
By the way if all you have to contribute to this thread is based on politics then why even post. Please solutions not more party politics.
It is interesting that some posters have automatically assumed that Mr. Clifford will be running in the next election simply because he has offered some solutions. He has not said that he is running.
Given his options, I can't imagine why he would want to run again since so many people are not interested in national solutions, such as he has proposed, but rather they are interested in 'what can you do for me personally or what are you prepared to give me for my vote'.
Cayman we better wake up because trust me irrespective of who wins the next elections, the money has run out and it doesn't matter how many hands are holding out for government favours there will be none to offer and solutions will have to be found !!!
We cry for solutions but when they are provided people don't want to hear it because they can't handle the truth and its convenient to just label it political. The time is coming Cayman. We need to come out of the denial and face the facts and lets fix our problems together.
I am one person who is thankful that we finally have some suggestions coming forward. We keep hearing about reducing the size of the civil service but all you can hear is that we can do that over night and nothing more is said. Mr. Clifford has offerred us the plan to do while at the same time protecting the incomes of those civil servants. Read the whole article and you will see it.
Sorry but that doesn't wash. To many of us it looks like a 'gang of four' emerging here – Ezzard, Arden, Donnie and now Chuckie.
And why not? About time the UDP/PPM impasse was broken.
Is this the Chuckie manifesto for the next election? If so you might have made that clear. Will you be the leader of the Independent party?
The problem is Chuckie that you and the PPM had your time and you f-d up. You say all these things but you were no better than McKeeva when you were in there. You would be no better whether you were PPM or independent. You seek power and a career in politics much like McKeeva. The difference is Mckeeva got to spend some time in there,you only got four years and you won't ever get anymore
I voted for you, even went to school with you, grew up with you, thought I was one of your friends but you thought I was with the UDP so you fired me for no reason other than that and replaced me with one of your party faithful. Time longer than rope, son and your time came within in four short years…It won't happen again under my watch.
So everybody is screaming for solutions and complaining that no one is offering any solutions yet the minute someone comes up with suggestions some people jump all over him. What a confused people we are. Do you all prefer McKeeva’s solutions ? Oh yeah that’s right McKeeva doesn’t have any solutions…….he is the problem. Chuckster you are a man of great courage. There are many people behind you Bro but when you make such bold suggestions you can expect the vocal minority to launch attacks against you. But we know that you are more than capable of defending yourself and your positions. Stand firm Sir !
Solutions v Politics
It should not be a case of Solutions v Politics.
Solutions there are many, politicians there are many.
The 'politics' are created by those who are insecure, hungry for power and money and self.
The 'solutions' will not happen because of those above.
Because the solutions outnumber the politicans, that would be giving in to what is right to do…that would be 'defeat' in those eyes.
It would actually be a V = Victory
Solutions V Politics
Same old from a same old unfortunately. Nice try though chuckle.
Bold suggestions Mr. Clifford. I see the UDP, PPM and some civil servants have already started the attacks, even though you seem to be the only person offering any real solutions. The sad thing is that they are in denial. I can assure you that what you have suggested as recommendations will have to be done, perhaps not before the election in 2013, but certainly after the elections. Either way, denial or not, the tough decisions which you have recommended, including cutting the civil service, will have to be done quicker than we think.
There is now some hope for our future. Thank you for this well articulated viewpoint Chuckster !
Thank you for these sensible solutions Charles. Now let’s see if the UDP will understand the message or only see the messenger !!!
Finally someone offers some sensible solutions and out comes the UDP and PPM operatives, who don’t have the brains to come up with soultions, to criticize and attack him. Ah boy…….wake up Cayman !
No disrespect Charles but you presided over a mot terrible period and I’m not so convinced that we should go back over that ground with you. Nothing you have said give is new. In fact all of it has been repeated elsewhere on numerous occasions. You have obviously startedthe early stages of your campaign. Good luck with that.
Well said, sir. But can we trust you?
Clifford is not well liked because of his past. But I would encourage others to not see the man, but consider what he wrote on solutions. This is about our future, and I think his solutions shared by many others, are good solutions. My hope is that the government considers these solutions shared by many others, and craft a good budget.
Agreed! Let us stick to the issues, not the personalities.
Mr Clifford,
Aside from the reduction of the CS over time there are no long term solutions in what you have said, and to be honest this is simply an amalgamation of other peoples ideas (many we have heard recently). Are you able to come up with solutions that are original, sustainable, effective and long-term?
I also do not buy the anti-party sentiment because you were out supporting your PPM when it was convenient to you now that it isnt you want to class them as bad for the country.
I am not buying this and I am sure the voters are not either. You couldnt be trusted when you were Mackeevas Chief Officer (sitting silent all those years, doing his bidding) and you certainly couldnt be trusted when you jumped ship on the PPM because you couldnt get your way, and you certainly cannot be trusted now, showing up on the scene so suddenly with all the answers???
wow! but wait… why is it this man's job to come up with "solutions that are original, sustainable, effective and long-term?"
…when you clearly not requiring your elected politicians to do so – and its their damn job!
this man is a citizen, same as you:
so since you are such an informed, intellegent and discerning commentator – why are you not demanding sucj high standards from your MLAs exactly?
XXXXX Just hating to have something to say!
XXXX Charles XXXX knows he is simply taking ideas from everyone else and passing them off as his and then hoping to get the credit. And the part about Parties destroying Cayman is rechless and illogical, the political parties didnt destroy Cayman it was greedy incompetent politicians. And by the way, I demand the same from all of them not just Charles. What he needs to do is stop shoo shoo ing behind the party leaders backs to their members trying to coax everyone to join him on his latest crusade.
And if he wants to run next time he needs to come up with real solutions not vote getters!
My Dear Mr. Perspective,
You say, "the political parties didnt destroy Cayman it was greedy incompetent politicians." Are you not aware that the greedy incompetent politicians ARE the political parties?
Respectfully,
A. Pastafarian
I note the vote pandering refusal to make the most necessary change, namely an immediate reduction in civil service numbers. The suggestions are just tinkering and fail to address the serious structural problems with the entire system. This is the work of a Cayman political insider trying to look like he is not. A new broom is needed to sweep the corruption and the old ways out of Cayman. This is not part of that process.
What Mr. Clifford fails to acknowledge is that the present party system which he condemns was born because of the failure of a government of independents elected in 2000. That government of independents lasted exactly one year before the'"coup" in 2001 when McKeeva wrested control of the government from Kurt Tibbetts. A government made up of people who are not prepared to work together will fail. At the end of the day it is about the kind of people you elect.
What Mr. Clifford also needs to acknowledge is the huge reputational damage he caused to the PPM because of his misuse of government documents. As McKeeva's Permanent Secrtetary at the time it was wrong to take gvoernemnt documents and use them to campaign against Mac and get elected himself. Maybe if the PPM had ditched him when the Commision of Inquiry found that he had acted in breach of the Civil Sevice Regulations they may have survived. instead they stood by him. He has repaid their loyalty to him by condemning them. Don't you just have to love the guy and isn't politics a beautiful thing?
Mr. Clifford should be given amedal for what he exposed but did enough people see it ? I bet there are seeing it now !!! Will we repeat the same mistake in 2013…..probably. Sad but true.
What Chuckie must realize is there are too many leaders who do not like shared thinking, and they all fail. That is what I see in independent candidates… failed leaders who can not work as a team. Chuckie keeps blowing off other people's ideas to try to keep himself relevant! But is this not truly one of the characteristics of a failed leader?
Try reading the whole article before commenting. See 9th para..
"Vote pandering" = democracy = the worst form of government, except for all the others (Winston Churchill).
And did you not fire "good people" from high positions just because they were friends of certain UDP…short memory you have…you are no better then what we have in office now…anyone to vote you back in is out of their minds!!!!
Could you paste a link or news article that supports your claim? Thank you
XXXX politcians don't hire of fire civil servants. In fact it is so hard for the civil service to get rid of non-performing civil servants that if one is fired you know they were very very poor performers !
Golly! I've never heard of any being fired for poor perfomance!
Finally some sensible suggestions from an experienced ex senior civil servant, former minister and local attorney. Why couldn’t the government or the PPM for that matter do what Mr. Clifford has done here ? Thank you Mr. Clifford.
I think PPM is not going to mention their solutions because they do not want the UDP side to tear it down. They are deliberately being the QUIET OPPOSITION.
Because they are too afraid. Simple….including Clifford.
Wow you made me want to vote for you. Stay independent.
Well done Mr. Clifford you have my backing all the way, now if our Premier would only take your advice I believe we would be better off.
Mr. Clifford you have given most some good ideas about the government's financial problems. Your ideas are what people have been saying for several years. I do no think any politician has listened to this advice before! Sadly though, you say we have adopted the Caribbean model of party politics, there is no definition of any such thing as a "Caribbean Model of party politics". Your political solutions as noble as they seem, are solutions to problems that do not exist. You are a perfect example of a politician that we do not need to elect. You should try to stop inventing problems and try to focus on real issues, such corrupt practices of vote buying and cronyism, poor skill sets of our politicians to run a sophisticated government in times like these. We have a constitution that almost seemingly asks that we have political parties, and you were right there in the thick of things when this constitution was being molded. Now you say we can run this country with a bunch of Saturday night cow boys! Shame on you Clifford! If political parties will divide us then what will 18 people running around trying to get elected do?
Excuse me, but you said, "problems that don't exist"?? I wonder how you could come to such a conclusion. So your saying that this civil service is not a problem. Or what about the expenditures? You seem to have a vendetta against Clifford…. who are you?
Well said.
Mr Clifford is no different from some of the others before him.
They have maligned the rest of the Caribbean without educating the majority of the people as to their history and common factors with the region.
So Mr. Clifford what is the name of the sea that surrounds us?
Who gave you the majority of your early education if it was not teachers from the Caribbean?
If the rest of the world refers to us as the West Indies or the Caribbean why do we as a people think we are not, is the question I really would like answered.
People like Clifford and Alden although they maybe relatively well educated have not lived or studied abroad for any length of time ( and I dont mean 6- months in Barbados or a couple of weeks at Liverpool)
Going abroad is not just about academics but understanding who you are and where you are coming from in the world. By being immersed abroad in another environment affords one the opportunity to interact with other cultures and internalise many factors.
How many of our present leaders are really shallow in this regard ? And this is what separated our former stalwarts of old from those today, who were iron men having sailed the globe on ships.
This is maybe one of the reasons we are failing.
Going on shore for a few days to check out the bars and have fun does not qualify for immersing in local cultures and learning anything. Studying at school overseas is a better qualification than some seamen having fun.
YOur posting shows how much you know about our seafaring heritage. If all of the descendents of Caymanians who migrated or were based abroad came home you would see.
The rot started long before 2001. We have had wave after wave of selfish politicians getting rich off the backs of the working folk.
When an issue comes before government for discussion, it is criminal for any MLA to vote without first consulting the very people who elected him/her into that position of trust.
Then there was the debacle with the referendum. A day off and only half the folk show up. For heaven's sake, the whole thing could have been done in an hour or two.
They dragged it out to make referendums unpopular, just another scam foisted upon us by people intent on retaining power and lining their own pockets. A properly organized referendum could be easily executed without disrupting the country.
Every politician MUST vote the will of the majority in his/her district or we cannot say we are a democracy. This is why these UDP people will never get back in, because the people have lost all trust in them. The same statement would apply to the PPM and God forbid that anyone should have to say, "I told you so."
It's time for a new way of politics that actually engages the people and it's time for people to wake up, read the news, and stop prostituting your vote to the highest bidder.
You should vote for the person who represents the best way forward for the country, not because he/she will do you favours. Prior incidents of vote buying should have resulted in criminal investigations a long time ago.
I am sorry Charles, but your recommendations only scratch the surface and do not really address the true causes of our national decay. Put succinctly, national decay has set in because of rotten, immoral leaders.
In my opinion, the most frightening inertial layer that any new government will have to deal with will be the senior civil service. Good luck with that one. If any of you aspiring Caymanians think that you will magically get elected and change your country, you are going to have to think again. You will certainly face a barrage of resistance from the old-school, long-term, senior civil servants who have done very, very well out of a life of "service."
The whole house of cards needs to come down and be replaced with a mansion of integrity wherein dwells the true Spirit of Cayman.
"I am sorry Charles, but your recommendations only scratch the surface and do not really address the true causes of our national decay. Put succinctly, national decay has set in because of rotten, immoral leaders." May I add, "rotten, immoral leaders here and overseas"
Thank you for this very relevant post Chuckie.
What we really need is solutions and not blame, and you have provided some very good alternatives.
As you are implying, it is time to move forward in a positive way.
Time to start preparing for May 2013!
Ari, (if that is your name), what a load of cockamamie! Please provide some valid reasons as to why you think this previously failed politician is going to pull a magic wand out of god knows where and supernaturally fix this mess.
Be a little more objective and we'll take you more seriously. Shish Kebab!
Anonymous (if that is your name), I hereby nominate you for the Nobel Prize in Analytics for your brilliant deduction that my short and positive post, implied a magic wand and the supernatural.
Just look in the nearest mirror and you will see a very intelligent person!
If you are part of the "NEW"Caymankind then Cayman might just have a future after all. Good luck to you. You are going to be fighting against the wishes of the many "OLD" Caymankind that will never have what it takes to be responsible and know they will never be able to now do it on thier own without help. Takeing the bottle away while helping them eat with a fork will help with the transition.
I think we need a combination of both old and new, and not all old live off the bottle. Alot of the new do the same as well.