Church leaders volunteer to mediate with gangs
(CNS): The country’s pastors have said they are willing to mediate between the rival gangs to promote peace. The Cayman Ministers Association is appealing to the gang members in the community and offering to help them find a better way to resolve the problems. The association said it stood ready to help in any way it could to stop the violence. “We appeal to the gangs of the community.We counsel you to find the better way to resolve your differences. The ministers of the CMA are willing to sit with rival factions to promote peace,” the church leaders said in a statement released Wednesday evening.
“We join with the traumatized citizens of Cayman in deploring and condemning in the strongest way the unlawful taking of human life as well as the unlawful removal of property as acts that are deeply sinful and result in severe and enduring distress to many,” the CMA said in a statement posted to the website. “Such acts, if not admitted and repented from, also do incomparable harm to the personhood of the perpetrators, who remain subject to severe censure not only by the authorities of the State but by the heavenly Father Himself.”
Offering sympathy to the families of those who have been killed they implored both pastors and lay persons to redouble their efforts and not to become “discouraged, either in prayer or in action” during what they said was a critical time.
“In the context of these deeply disturbing recent criminal acts against the human person, as well as the incidents of robbery that have continued throughout the year, we affirm the responsibility ofChurches and others to uphold and support the family as the foundation of society, and to heed the Lord's command to love our neighbour,” the ministers added.
See full statement here
Category: Local News
The money Big Mac waste on some Academy and Rose church could have gone into programs to help troubled youth.
And the pastors who want to do this "mediation" were trained to mediate with criminals where…?
They were trained the same place our UK Governor was trained to 'govern' and our UK Police Chief were trained to deal with gang violence.
We are all learning about this together Sherlock- so give people some credit for having the moxy to do something. Cayman has never experienced anything like this before. Had they announced they were hiring some youth pastors from the States to come in to talkto the gangs this forum would erupt in the usual atheistic regurgitations.
So these folks are simply trying to reach out to some of these kids who have gone astray, many of whom are simply scared crapless right now, not knowing if hanging out with their childhood buddies might be cause for them to be behind the next bullet.
I say to all the critics. GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND DO SOMETHING. INTERVENE IN A YOUNG PERSONS LIFE AND STOP PASSING THE BUCK. THEY ARE ALL OUR CHILDREN.
To all you emplolyers whether expats or Caymanians who fudge jobs for your friends, country-mates, or the cheapest available labor and turn some of these guys away when they are making a genuine effort to change, beware.
They are shooting each other out of anger. When that anger turns to frustration, guess who they'll be shooting after next….
YOU!!
First of all, we must understand that we are all responsible to this country where we are living and working in. Cast out in our minds the person/s who should be responsible in stopping these crimes for this creates division and that we are not united anymore, instead, believe that WE as citizens, whatever our job and status is, would do our own social responsibility. Family at Church, Family in the house, Family in the government, Family at school or whatever Family in an institution, let us all help each other and do whatever we can do big or small it does not matter as long as it is the best and comes from the heart. In this time of hardship and uncertainties, let us reflect and think, "What can I do to help?" then let us do our actions.
These were my insights. Thank you and more power to us.
These are the same pious self-congratulatory a$$es who always pop up preaching the gospel and 'showing' their christianity for very select issues:
The Cayman churches are silent to preventative action. The Cayman churches are silent to the rampant sex abuse and incest in Cayman homes. The Cayman churches were most publicly vocal on the issue of gays not gaining human rights in the constitution, even if that means everyone in the country gets less protection as well. The Cayman churches are silent on the plight of the disabled and elderly. The Cayman churches do not use their political influence to get the desperately-needed mental health facilities or juvenile detention facilities. The Cayman churches are silent on the domestic violence in the homes these misguided children are being raised in. They spend their collection on building funds and shutters, but not ONE of them that took millions from McKeeva's Nation Building slush fund put a dime towards an after-school programme to help kids off the streets, do homework and have a safe place between 3-6pm from gangs, drug dealers and other predators and negative influences – they bought land, improved their buildings and installed shutters.
But now its good public relations for the church 'flock' to have public prayer meetings. And this also returns a favour to their generous benefactor policitians – by reinforcing the message to voters that its not the policitians’ fault: police and security falls under the Governor. But if all the Government can do is organise prayer meetings in response to the country’s crime problem, this is UNACCEPTABLE.
With respect, "Prayer" is not an effective crime-prevention strategy! If the prayer meeting does not work, then what – nothing?
Now that these kids we neglected and ignored are starting to act the fool, the churches are so out-of-touch and ineffective, so even though the effort is likely pointless, hey, they will say that they ‘atleast tried’ something right?
What bothers me about Cayman churches is that they do not use their considerable influence to address the social problems in a more meaningful or direct way. I do not doubt that if the Cayman churches were vocal about the ongoing need for mental heath facilities for example, that the government would ignore them. Yet, these long standing social needs have existed for years are still not being addressed. Same with the juvenile detention facilities. Same with the sex abuse. Same with drug rehab facilities. Same with sex education in schools. And on and on. Why not demand these problems be addressed and finally put in place – for the longer term?
Amazing – problem solved!
Thanks Churches!
The time for mediation was yesterday! Come on guys….will you put something out that makes sense. Do you think for one minute that these guys want to sit and have a cup of coffee and talk about gang problems. I can't get my four year old son to sit and have lunch at the table, and you are telling me you can get the gangs to sit down and talk about guns?….wow!
Can someone get me a cup of tea?
say what 9:59
This morning when I took a bath, I was still a woman (like the day i born). Smoke that in your pipe. Stop taking up for church people. Give back the money and help the police and the youths. I am a young caymanian and none of these young men is my family/friends, but I feel for the families as their as some mothers child. This is sad times for Cayman but instead of us praying all the time, it takes this kind of stuff for churches to come together, come on man, we in some serious times ya bo bo
If THE CHURCHES HAD A BEEN DOING their jibs we would now have a better society. EEach member should have targeted one child who had home problems andmoniter them right through school until they finished and go foot to foot with them until they got a job. My bible tells me that prayers without work is dead. So many churches now a day in Cayman is all about money, not to mention seeing who can get the highest positions in the churches. Thank God we have a few non professing people in our society who have gone the extra mile in order to save a few of the youth without their names and a picture being put in the press that only humiliates them. It would have been nice if these now called thugs as kids were taken to sunday and sabbath school, sometimes offered a good meal, given a uniform, lunch and a hug. Some of them only grow up hearing curses always hungry etc etc. Forget about anyone trying to help them search for a job. There dont seem to be a future for the most of them when they come out of school,
Point finger, blame, point finger, blame. That is all some people are good for. How about you accept your own responsibility and act on it. Society as a whole has failed and we as a whole must accept that we share in the responsibility.
Yes, I would like to accept responsibility for myself, but the law says I can't have an effective weapon to protect myself and family. If it were legal I would have a dependable handgun and I would make certain that my wife was well-versed in its use.
Why don't they get together and pray that the 5 murder victims be brought back to life. It will keep them busy and do just as much good.
That picture is somewhat disturbing….
Yeah! Reminds me of Northern Ireland during the worst of the troubles – bible in one hand, M16 in the other.
These Phoney Pastors need to get a life. Talking this crap after all this has happened. They should have been doing things to help long ago. To busy plotting to get a part of Mac's money to do the right thing like save lost souls. No wonder they are so silent on what's happening to our country. Go back to your air condidtioned offices and count your money that's what you do best.
absolutely correct. When ever have you heard any of them speak out against the massive problem of young single mothers bringing kids into this world with no paternal support,? I guess that would be biting the hand that feeds you, i.e. would go againsts Mac's philosophy of expanding the population!
I'm not sure what church you have been to but those issues are addressed all the time by pastors. Of course people like you then scoff at them saying they are trying to impose their morality on everyone else.
Thank you Lord for these humble pastors who are brave enough to step forth into the darkest troubling times of our lives.
I pray that you will give them the courage of David when he faced Goliath
I pray that you will give them the leadership skills of Moses leading your people out of Egypt
I pray that you will protect them as you did for David in lions dens
I pray that you will show these lost and troubled souls that you are the true and living God that you once did with Meshach, Shadrack and Abednego
I pray that you will lead and guide their way, go before them as you did for your people as they crossed the Red Sea into the promise land.
I pray that these people we now call "gangsters" will be receptive of your Word and your servants, and will be worth saving like you did for the people of Ninevah.
This is pray in the name of your beloved son, Jesus Christ.
Amen.
I didn't know that God read CNS.
Does that make God part of the anti-Mac conspiracy?
He also reads your mind, dude!
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full." — Matthew 6:5 (NASB)
nice of them to take time out from counting all their money……..
Mediation does work. Someone from the community has to go talk to these guys…even if it is one on one. Someone who these guys think is "cool"….that they know from the neighborhood that has influence over them…any former teachers, police, firemen?? Pastors would work if they were in touch with these guys and talked their lingo. The guys being shot are not too old for mediation…
Got to laugh at this, Pastors want to mediate with Gangs. Well most of you Pastors are over the age of 50yrs and have no idea what is going on in these guys’ lives, you cannot relate to them at all, all you are going to do is speak to them like little children. It’s just like you guys coming and knocking on my door on a Saturday or Sunday morning forcing a broacher down my throat. I don’t need that and nor do they.
Solution; If you Pastors want to meet with these gang members, send a young Caymanian Pastor by the Name of “Felix Manzanares”, he can relate to this gang members as he is a young Caymanian and roughly the same age, he most likely went to school with some of these kids and can rap thier language.
What a joke this country is.
If this country is such a joke, tell me a better one, and why you are not there. I will personally raise the funds to send you there.
Right! Lets get rid of anyone who is smarter than you. Caymans way of solving problems with Caymanians. Which explains in part why they have so many problems.
A sense of humour solves nothing but helps to see solutions.
May be if the Church leaders were to spend some of that money they just got on tangible efforts to help these young people then it might be worth while. But mediate…..sit down and and do nothing but preach..as usual
Exactly 8.47 What a waste of time and news space. What you afraid to actually go to these areas? Afraid to die?
If the pastors had any influence or positive effect we wouldn't be in this situation. I think we should take their $10m of government funding away and spend it on machine guns for the police.
Why is it that Pastors only want to pray when something like this happens? Why not come out once a month and pray for the Cayman Islands. Why not take the money and help the youths of this country that the Big MAc gave the various churches?
You need to take the time to really find out what the churches are doing – maybe not all of them but certainly some, are trying very hard. And we do not only pray when something happens – some pray constantly, that is why we know where to turn when human choices turns our world in to chaos.
Sir Hypo
there is a cure for negativity my friend…its called POSITIVITY! what are you doing to help the situation besides critizing the ministers???
And what are you doing to help reduce crime??
Of course I can't be sure, but it is unlikely that this anonymous poster has taken an oath to serve his flock in the name of Jesus Christ. These pastors have. They are there in the first place to provide pastoral care, not to engage in performance-prayer while their people are suffering.
I wonder if these so-called gangs actually even remember what their problems are with each other. Their only motive right now seems to be simple revenge for the prior killing – but what started it all? what was the root problem? Can any of these gang members even remember?
It first began with drugs and just the fact that they lived in seperate neighborhoods in West Bay as if they own the territory, but one thing they need to know is…that All of West Bay is my territory and everysingle West Bayer's territory so, they better scratch that off the list for a lousy reason to fight. So they can put that in their pipes and Smoke it!!
Now theirfighting to see who eats a bullet and hits the casket first….what a mess!
Hatfields…McCoys…ring any bells…
Yeah. I'd like to know, too. Will some of you gang members post some comments on this?
These gang members are not going to want to talk with any church leaders, because first, the church leaders do not know the problem. Do you really think it is gang related. I do not think so. I think that some one has lost alot of money in a drug or gun deal, and they are just shooting up anyone they can find who is involved in drugs and guns. It is not gang related. Because they have six of the Cayman most notorous, and the killing is still going on. Thing again, we may be wrong, and asuming the wrong thing.
That's rich, given that religion has been the primary cause of death and destruction throughout history.
That is an often repeated claim but is empircally false. Christian Apologist Gregory Koukl puts it this way: "It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God."
Vox Day summarises the matter:
"The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.
The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand."
You are talking nonsense. A very old, worn out & many-time-proved-wrong argument.
Hitler was a Catholic – deal with it – read Mein Kampf – many references to a Creator.
http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm
Pol Pot/Stalin & any other "atheist" dictator did not do what they did because they were athiests. Atheism is not a belief – stop protecting the real killers of this world.
Ridiculous argument – and Creationists/apologists have been using this argument for ages – regardless of being proven wrong with FACTS time & time again.
No, I am not talking nonsense. I have clearly presented facts, not opinions. You are emotionally upset because I have presented the facts and you cannot refute them. You are driven by your obvious hatred of Christianity.
You defeat your own argument. Hitler also did not do what he did because he was, as you claim, a Catholic. Wikipedia states that "Hitler's own words from Mein Kampf seem to conflict with the idea that his antisemitism was religiously motivated". Certainly none of his philosophy reflected Christian principles.
As for being a Catholic Wikipedia states: "Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of some dispute. While raised by a skeptic father and a Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in theSacraments completely. He sometimes made public statements which seemed to affirm religion (which suited his political purposes) and prior to 1940 had promoted a "positive Christianity", purged of Judaism and instilled with Nazi philosophy, but in private was hostile to Christianity and had a plan to destroy it after the war. The degree to which he participated in and was influenced by the racist occultism, paganism and esotericism which was popular in late 19th, early 20th century Germany is also a matter of dispute". Any quote that you can roduce to suggest that Hitler was a good Catholic can be refuted by many other quotes.
Atheism is indeed a belief. Indeed atheism is dogmatic: it asserts that there is no God.
You have produced any relevant facts and you have not disproven anything that I have said. Instead, you have maliciously attempted to misrepresent the facts because you hate religion in general and Christianity in particular. You are intellectually dishonest.
Wow! Now that’s telling ’em!
Actually, the poster didn't say that Hitler was a "good" Catholic. He was raised with some degree of exposure to the Catholic faith and certainly operated within a Christian culture — that much is beyond dispute.
And your definition of atheism as a belief system is simplistic. It fails to take into account all of the historical intended meanings of the word — which I am sure you well know.
Who is being intellectually dishonest, again?
These arguments are old and tired. We can all agree: Many Christians have done evil in the name of Christianity. Many atheists, despots, agnostics and skeptics have done evil in the names of their own ideologies. It would appear that the original poster is nonplussed by the fact that pastors, while they have not had a positive influence on gang members thus far, seem to claim (or have claimed for them) some special qualification to combat evil, when in fact, they are wholly human, their religion having been implicated in far greater measures of brutality than the boys in West Bay.
Forgive me but you have just rambled like the original poster.
" It fails to take into account all of the historical intended meanings of the word — which I am sure you well know."
Like most rational people I prefer to look at what a word actually means. "Historical intended meanings" is just more excuse & blame making to suit your argument. Let's stick to facts shall we?
Please – give me one example of an atheist mass murderer doing what they did specifically because of their atheism?
You both accuse me of intellectual dishonesty yet I have gven you many direct quotes as opposed to Wikipedia & biased Christian apologists.
Here is how the OED defines "atheism":
Note that the OED definition covers the whole spectrum of atheist belief, from weak atheism (those who do not believe in or credit the existence of one or more gods) to strong atheism (those who assert the contrary position, that a god does not exist).
I take it you do not believe in Thor, Apollo, Zeus? Well you are an atheist also. We are all atheists to God/Gods we do not believe in. Had you been born in Libya/Iran/Somalia I will wager that you would not recognise Jesus/Yaweh as Lord?
"I take it you do not believe in Thor, Apollo, Zeus? Well you are an atheist also. We are all atheists to God/Gods we do not believe in".
Clearly you have a unique understanding of the word "atheist". An atheist is simply one who believes that there is no deity. Perhaps it would make it crystal clear for you if we added the words "at all" at the end of that definition. In the same way that "theism" does not require belief in a particular god "atheism" is not disbelief in a particular god. In other words, so long as I do believe in the existence of God or a god or gods the fact that I do not believe in a particular god does not make me an atheist.
"In other words, so long as I do believe in the existence of God or a god or gods the fact that I do not believe in a particular god does not make me an atheist."
No, just an infidel…depending on your point of view, of course.
Actually, if you read the OED definitions, you are incorrect on this matter. It is quite possible to be atheistic about a particular god or gods. And one assumes you are atheistic about lots of them.
"Like most rational people I prefer to look at what a word actually means."
a) Words come by their (current) meanings through use and intent. Many, many words in all sorts of languages have more than one connotation…just as the word "atheism" does.
b) People who call themselves atheists do not all agree on what the word should mean.
Thank you so much for cutting and pasting the OED definition of the word and agreeing with me that the word is more nuanced than you originally pretended.
XXX
Please note that I have argued AGAINST the idea that atheism is a belief system. And I was responding to the other participant in this thread. Thank you for the needless attack, though.
And I am an atheist, so no, I don't believe in Thor, Apollo or Zeus, any more than I believe in the Christian god.
I still think this is a pointless argument: it is beyond dispute that members of every creed throughout the history of human life have committed atrocities, and it matters not a jot whether these were done in the name of atheism or not. If you were to think for just a moment, you would probably agree that violence committed by Christians — even when ostensibly committed in the name of religion — is probably more about power and position than any particular god, just as religion itself often is.
my sincere apologies Brother/Sister – I thought I was replying to the OP, I must have clicked the wrong one. Excellent points. Peace.
Right back at ya, Pastor Bucket. It's easy to lose track of the points with this poster since he or she often seems to agree with points made by other posters, but clearly doesn't want to. ;0)
So given the exact same content the post is "rambling" if written by a Christian but contains "excellent points" if written by an atheist. You are a funny guy.
You are being simplistic. Whether or not they claim to be Christian the point is that Christianity did not cause them to do these evils as they completely contrary to the principles of the Christian faith.
"the pastors… seem to claim (or have claimed for them) some special qualification to combat evil, when in fact, they are wholly human, their religion having been implicated in far greater measures of brutality than the boys in West Bay".
First, while some are anointed servants of God, I don't imagine that the pastors are claiming to be anything other than "wholly human". Second, this is a good example of a complete non-sequitur. It seems to be saying that because some of persons at particular points in history have claimed Christianity as their religion while committing atrocities (ignoring the fact that many more Christians throughout history have done tremendous deeds of charity, self-sacrifice and, we contend, have been the instruments of the miraculous) that means that Christianity cannot combat evil. That simply does not follow.
"You are being simplistic. Whether or not they claim to be Christian the point is that Christianity did not cause them to do these evils as they completely contrary to the principles of the Christian faith."
Um…that was my point. And the same goes for atrocities committed by people identifying themselves asatheists…although your last post doesn't seem to be this open-minded where atheists are concerned. Do you only grant this concession to Christians?
I agree with your second point, except that the pastors themselves seem to display, through this performance prayer (rather than the actual commission of some of those acts of charity and self-sacrifice you mention), a belief that they do have some special power and status. Otherwise, why would they pray in such a public way? Why make an "official pronouncement" of this type? Surely their prayers and counsel would be more personally effective if done quietly with the troubled young adults themselves…if, that is, the pastors truly wanted to share their humanity for the greater good.
I think you have lost the plot. I was responding to a post which stated: "That's rich, given that religion has been the primary cause of death and destruction throughout history". I have shown that to be empirically false as vastly more death and destruction was done by atheists for whom religion cannot have been thecause. My statement that Christianity did not cause persons claiming to be Christians to commit these evils is also relevant to the issue. However, whether or not atheism caused atheists to commit atrocities is not relevant to the issue. It was never my contention that it did. Evil in men's hearts causes them to commit atrocities. Judas was a disciple of Jesus and had evil in his heart but he was nota true believer or follower of Christ. I hope you get the point.
I do not see that the article said anything about "performance prayer". Instead it said "the country’s pastors have said they are willing to mediate between the rival gangs to promote peace. The Cayman Ministers Association is appealing to the gang members in the community and offering to help them find a better way to resolve the problems. The association said it stood ready to help in any way it could to stop the violence… The ministers of the CMA are willing to sit with rival factions to promote peace,” the church leaders said in a statement released Wednesday evening. It was all about sitting quietly with the troubled young adults themselves. We should all be applauding that rather than making nasty comments about people who are at least offering to do something positive about the crime situation. Instead, your mind is so prejudiced against Christians that you have read into the article what is not there.
Obviously Christianity does claim special access to God. That is the whole point. We make no apology for that. But it is not sufficient to pray. As a nation we must also repent of our wicked ways and seek the face of God. Acts of charity etc. are not substitutes for prayer; they are different facets of the mission of Christians.
You know, I could agree with your second point if only they had actually approached the gang members without all the fanfare instead of making a general announcement about what they "are willing" to do. If they are willing, they don't need to make an official proclamation to that effect (a performance, in the eyes of many). They just need to do it — otherwise, it's just another pointless meeting between themselves, and another pointless pat on the back for their "willingness" to help, without really helping at all.
I agree with your first point too — it's pretty much what I wrote and think myself — except, of course for the (rather unnecessary) comment about my having lost the plot. That's just rude.
Now you are attempting to spin your comment to make it fit the facts. Has it occurred to you that the Pastors may not know these gangsters personally and so may need to send a public message? Has it occurred to you that it may help the public psychologically to know that someone is trying to do something about the problem and not feel completely overwhelmed by it? No, you prefer to find the most negative spin possible. You clearly have a very prejudiced view. This issue may be one of the few on which most people are agreed and we need to pull together and not be divided simply because we have a different worldview from others who are trying to help. It does not help to be divisive about an issue like this.
"Lost the plot" is simply an expression that means you have lost focus of the point under discussion, much you like you said to Pastor Buckett that he had lost track. There is nothing rude about it and it was very relevant to make that point. I regret that you found the expression offensive; that was not the intention.
And you Sir/Madam have done exactly what you falsely accused me of: Your facts are opinions. Quotes from Wikipedia & Christian Apologists are not facts.
Atheism is not a belief at all – It is a lack of belief. How is it dogmatic without Dogma? There are no rules or regulations, no set leaders or schools. I hate religion? Hate Christianity? Such bizarre unfounded claims from someone who does not even know me!
How about we get some direct quotes from Hitler himself? I have at least read the book – not relied on some apologist to twist for me:
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" – Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
“The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf Hitler – Mein Kampf
“National Socialism is not a cult-movement– a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship… We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else– in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perceptionand straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will– not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938
I have a lot more…..
You are so predictable.
"Quotes from Wikipedia & Christian Apologists are not facts". LOL. But quotes from nobeliefs.com are facts? Is it Ok to accept their twists? The quotes I provided cite facts as the basis for comment. History is always a mixture of facts and interpretation of facts. My point was to demonstrate that there are professional historians (and there are many) who do not share your view and you cannot therefore present it as objective fact.
I have already explained the quotes which supposedly show that Hitler was a good Catholic. This was rhetoric which he used to his political advantage. As historian Joachim Fest wrote: "Hitler knew, through the constant invocation of the God the Lord (German: Herrgott) or of providence (German: Vorsehung), to make the impression of a godly way of thought". We have seen a similar tactic used here by politicians and most recently by defence counsel in a criminal case. Declaring oneself a Catholic or a Christian does not make one so anymore than my declaring that I am the King of England makes it so. Surely you are sensible enough to understand that. Is that all you have got – a bunch of meaningless quotes where he is claiming to be something which by his own philosophy and actions he clearly was not?
Obviously one cannot be a Christian and be antagonistic to Christianity and hell bent on destroying it. Here a few quotes:
"It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity," he said in 1933, "because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood."
"One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."
"Pure Christianity — the Christianity of the catacombs — is concerned with translating the Christian doctrine into fact. It leads simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely wholehearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics."
"Do you really believe the masses will ever be Christian again? Nonsense. Never again. The tale is finished… but we can hasten matters. The parsons will be made to dig their own graves".
Goebbels, Bazi Minister of Propaganda, noted:
"The Fuhrer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Chrisainity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race…Both [Judaaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed".
Historian John Morley writes: "In Poland, both Jews and Christians were objects of Nazi oppression and manipulation." The clergy were a chief target: "In West Prussia, out of 690 parish priests, at least two-thirds were arrested, and the remainder escaped only by fleeing from their parishes. After a month's imprisonment, no less than 214 of these priests were executed… by the end of 1940 only twenty priests were left in their parishes — about three percent of the number of parish priests in the pre-war era".
So enough with the nonsense claims. I won't waste any more of time refuting a patently ridiculous claim.
This is exactly why in my last post I gave you nothing but direct quotes from Adolf Hitler himself, mostly from his own writings in Mein Kampf. No "historical interpretations" from obvious Christian or Atheist apologists.
So by your logic I cannot present his own writings, quotes & letters as facts? Yet you can provide more "evidence" via historians – brilliant Christian logic!
And because some Christian apologist historians disagree, I "cannot therefore present it as objective fact" ?
nobeliefs: Say what you like, avoid the issue & be dishonest about non-existent "twists" – all quotes are taken directly from Hitler in speeches & writings – all with sources & references – something you have failed to do again!
Ok so let's say you say you are the King Of England – straight away I know this is not true & you would be unable to continue such a claim as you cannot behave or take action as a King could.
I bring you back to…Hitler's own words and actions.
Yes, his actions correlate very well with Christianity – both in scripture & global events in history & modern times. Are you one of those Christians that likes to ignore the God of the Old Testament (have you even read it? as most haven't) who is:
"jealous & proud to be so, unforgiving, an ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" – Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion.
I am not so ignorant to accept the New Testament & that suddenly God is all peace & love. Are you going to now deny the above facts? Facts based on the ACTUAL words in the Old Testament?! Tell you what why not send me some quotes from historians who can tell me what Yaweh was thinking or meant to say?!
Modern times: 2 Christian US Presidents have launched (and tens of millions of Christian citizens have supported ) 2 wars resulting in the genocide of 1 MILLION Iraqis.
US Congress/Presidents: Christian: Funding the genocide of Palestinians.
US Justice System: Death Penalty.
By the way….what was on the German soldier's belt buckle?
http://nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm
"Gott mit uns"(meaning God with us)
This and your immature "LOL" show yet again that there is just no point debating Creationists.
Hitler was a Catholic & proud – deal with it.
Sounds like reading Mein Kampf has gotten to you dude!
Here is some interesting information on the subject.
http://org.law.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/publications/churches.pdf
R. J. Rummel, Professor Emeritus at the Univerisity of Hawaii, the author of Death by Government, calculates that the Communist regime, 1917-1987, murdered about 62,000,000 people, while Chairman Mao murdered some 77,000,000 people. No religion there.
If they are willing to mediate they should stop talking and start going into these crime ridden neighborhoods. After all their souls should be right with the Lord and they should have no fear of dying. That is assuming their souls are right with God. So go ahead Pastors have no fear go into these areas and talk with the young men and stop waiting for them to come to you!!
I am not a Christian, but I think this is exactly what needs to happen. These kids were raised in the churches; many identify themselves as Christians and just seem to be lost. If a group of pastors were upstanding enough to go into these troubled areas and talk these kids out of doing violence, perhaps they would regain their sense of trust in the adult world. Heathen that I am, even I would attend a church whose pastor had the guts and sense of responsibility to put his or her feet in the ground instead of putting yet more empty words into the air.
Thumbs down to pastors talking to kids face to face. Hmmmm.
Hmmmm, pastors alone in rooms with kids doesn't always seem to end well.
As a Caymanian and a christian, It is of uttermost sence that the Government stop allowing these so called pastors from opening church on every corner. Let these people pay for a work permit if the want to open up a church, and it should be the same cost as a business permit.
Now I have a reason for saying this, and I am going to tell you, so if it does not seem write what I am suggesting then I will listen to your opinion.
Every district has churches springing up overnight, Some on the beaches, some on peoples back porches, some in peoples garage, while some are being held in the living room of their home or apartment, while yet some are rented spaces.
I just happened to be buying some groceries on Sunday night at a certain plaza in Bodden Town when I heard music and singing at around 8,45pm I looked to see where it was comming from. There inside was a congregation of three people, with the biggest music set, a piano player and a drummer, of course with something in the pulpit, who I supposed must be a pastor. I was told that this is church some times have only the most 8 people sometimes one person but they are paying 1,200 dollars a month for rent. Now you tell me what you think. These people need to stop setting up church, because it is something else going on.
LOLFair enough!