South Sound cruise berthing
Firstly, let me declare that I am directly affected by the cruise industry in Cayman. I work for a water sports operator so I know first hand how the island is affected by us not having a proper berthing facility. I used to work five days a week until the last year or so when the calls on Grand Cayman dropped significantly, clearly because of a lack of proper dockage.
I now work 3 to 4 days per week depending on the volumes of people arriving to the island. My employer made a decision not to lay off anyone but rather to give us reduced work per week so that we still had some income to meet our obligations.
With that in mind, I've had a lot of time to consider the re-emergence of the proposal to put the port in South Sound. I've listened to the talk shows, read the blogs and had a lot of time to contemplate. I've summarized all of my pros and cons below:
The tourist experience in Cayman is very much congested. As part of a training exercise we were taken to four ports, including Cayman. On arrival, the wait to get on the tenders took at least an hour or two off our time in Grand Cayman and many of the crew opted not to disembark because it wasn't worth the hassle. Having said that, once we did get ashore it was very much congested and chaotic. In comparison, when we disembarked in Roatan it was not congested at all, all of the buses were organized and there was no sense of confusion and I got a MUCH better impression in Roatan than Cayman.
This leads me to my second point. We seem to be pushing for the port to be in town, where we as a populace are used to it being located — not because it is the most logical place, but simply because it is where it has always been. If we were to relocate the cruise port to South Sound, we would remove it from the heavy shipping traffic and industrial town, riddled with banks, lawyers and accounting firms, to a more laid back location, which is in the center of the island with quick links to George Town, SMB, North Sound and East End. We all know the Go East initiative could be revived by this, especially with a new beach club in Bodden Town on the old Englestad estate across from the Bodden Town Police Station.
If the captains are correct and this can be used year round and we don't lose any days due to inclement weather, the island will benefit greatly each year. Surely the added revenue will again help to bridge any shortfalls in our budget. Additionally, we will be able to accommodate the new large vessels like the Oasis and Epic, which currently pass us by.
If the government was to acquire all of the swamp land by Old Crewe Road, this would be the perfect area for it to connect to all of our bypass roads. This would also give government the space it needs to accommodate large numbers of cruise visitors at one time and all of the accompanying taxis and buses. If the locals in South Sound are worried about traffic, it could completely bypass this roadway and be directed to the Linford Pierson and the South Sound Bypass that had been discussed years ago.
I understand from the talk shows that there will be a large quantity of fill extracted from the cruise basin. Could this not be used to complete the Eastern Arterial bypass and any other bypass roads that the islands need? Even if the roads are not built at this time we could "rough" them in and at least pave the way for future generations and needs, but we may never have an opportunity like this again.
With a much nicer cruise experience, we will begin to get cruise passengers who return as stay over guests like we used to receive in the past when the town was not such a busy location. Additionally, if we move the port to South Sound we will take some of the traffic away from our main bread winner — Seven Mile Beach — and improve the experiences for the stayover guests as well.
Public Support: very few projects in Cayman get the public's support that this seems to be receiving. The Cayman sea captains are all on board and many otherwise"environmentalists" are also on board as they see the need the islands have for a proverbial "shot in the arm" for the cruise industry.
I implore Cayman to continue the national debate on this important matter. I've been having a hard time making ends meet but I'm glad to have the ability to have a job. However, it will be nice in the future when our arrivals do pick back up and I can again start saving to realize my dream of one day owning a home.
Proposed cruise berthing layout attached.
Category: Viewpoint
The Governent has taken ten years to organize the building of two cruise piers in G.T, so what is the likelyhood of them being capable of developing a port in South Sound, which would undoubtedly cost north of $350 million? Precisely zero, I would estimate. Apart from anything else, the idea, in relation to the realistic and pragmatic alternatives, is bananas. Why present such an idea when the decision has already been made to build the finger-piers and upgrade the GT experience? It's like the manufacturer who was ramping up production of shoes for caterpillars, and just as he was ready for delivery, they turned into chrysalises. Dream on, the right decision has already been made.
You want a pier quickly. Here you go its on its way. In George Town. South Sound is not being considered :
After months of delays, the government hopes construction on the cruise berthing facility in George Town starts by the end of the year.
Speaking Wednesday from Puerto Rico where he was attending the Florida-Caribbean Cruise Association Conference, Premier McKeeva Bush said he has seen the draft definitive agreement between the government and China Harbour Engineering Company and he hoped the final agreement can get signed sometime in November, after the matter is approved by Cabinet.
“Hopefully they will be able to start construction in December,” he said.
http://www.compasscayman.com/caycompass/2011/10/06/December-hopes-for-cruise-ship-dock/
Very much agree with this poster:
My suggestion to improve the GT experience (currently as well as when the port is built here – because it will be despite this nonsensical argument regarding south sound) is that we shut harbour drive to traffic from 9am-4pm to allow more access to pedestrian traffic to ease walking congestion. Allow tour buses and taxis to still run their routes, but it will ease access for cruisers. Further, most workers will be in the office by that time, so it shouldn't cause a major inconvenience. If we had issues with school tpick-ups, change it from 9-3.
Why spend loads of money to build new roads or reclaim land in the bay for staging areas when policy changes can accomplish the same for free with only minor inconveniences to our local populatioon.
– Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/04/2011 – 11:17.
I support this plan. separating the cruise/port facility from downtown is good for the future. Of course it will be sad to loose the pristine South Sound but Cayman needs a real port.
Having this port removed from the 7 mile beach area assures that the most valuable real estate section of the country will remain beautiful for generations to come.
No I do not own property on 7 mile beach.
People need to get their minds around the idea that some environmental sacrifice will be required to carry the country forward. This plan manes sense to me well done Captains.
This exactly what a growing contingent has been saying for a while!
Sorry, I am not convinced for one minute that the decrease in cruise ships docking in Cayman is entirely because of the lack of a proper docking facility. Not convinced at all!
Well at least the guy doing the kayak tours would not have to transport his people so far. Oh thats right. There would be nothing left to look at.
I thought about posting on this topic. Then I realised that I really don’t care.
I also thought about posting a comment but then I realised that Caymanians really dont give a stuff about their island or the environment, all they want to do is cover the place in tasteless cheap housing and flog it at ludicrus rates to expats…so why get upset about destroying a pristine marine environment …I'm certain that is exactly what all those wealthy cruise ship passengers want to see when they arrive here…
Why are we even having this stupid arguement ,when we all know that the day Carnival docks in Havana is the day we say "adios cruisers"… we will however have a shiny new dock but sadly, no money to pay for it .
It would actually have a multiplier effect, because right now only 50% of the tourists get off the ships anway because of tendering. So now we'll be able to get a few more tourists AND more ships. Seems like a win, win, win for the island.
so would a pier anywhere on the island
Doesn't cayman get its fair share of cruise ships today? I think it does.
All this money and environmental impact, for what – an extra 5% of visitors?
Is it worth it?
People talk of the dock as if its a silver bullet for the economy. That's just bunkem.
M.V., your post would have carried more weight if you had used your real name. Why didn't you?
Someone showed me a picture of a google earth map with the proposed layout of the facilities. If anyone has a link to this picture could you pls post it. Thankyou
http://centos6-httpd22-php56-mysql55.installer.magneticone.com/o_belozerov/31115drupal622/sites/default/files/u4/Cpt%20plan.JPG
Notice the 'Option 2' in the bottom right corner of the google image.
Option 1: Emerald Sound
Choppy Delaphena – South Sound Cruise port
Rene Hislop and Burns Conolly – Emerald Sound
Choppy Delaphena and Rene Hislop – business partners
Cruise ship port and Emerald Sound could not co-exist.
Burns what you got to say now ? Why so quiet now?
Watching with interest.
However, just clarifying again that my firm is the architect for Emerald Sound but I am not a partner, owner nor promoter. My chief public role has been to get the facts out there as so many inaccuracies were put out by some on what is a solid and fully researched proposal by my client.
Otherwise, I have been told many times to "listen to the Old Sea Captains", some of who were objectors to ES. So I am listening along with everyone else.
The Cruise Berthing proposal in Red Bay is obviously very sound technically allowing year round use. It will remove any doubt of potential damage to Seven Mile Beach, It would remove the significant impact that the facility will have downtown to traffic, it will help distribute cruise traffic Island wide and it is obviously significantly cheaper ( as much as 50%) to build as it can be built in relatively shallow water instead of the 40-80 feet of water at the edge of the drop-off in Hog Sty Bay. It will consolidate cruise into one port instead of two (Spotts Landing on bad days). Additionally, from what I can see the breakwater inside the reef will completely protect the Bay and coastal homes from storm waves negating hurricane damage in future. These are valid enough reasons to give it a real review without dismissing the proposal on arrival.
However one correction, from what I have seen, it seems technically possible to build Emerald Sound as designed as it appears the road bridging in from the port could "fly over" the land already left for NRA expansion by ES on its way to Lindford Pierson Hwy. If that is the plan, that would therefore remove all cruise traffic from South Sound and the coastal road.
To start off with, let us remember that the Government is in advanced talks with an investor/developer to build a cruise ship dock in Spotts and one in GT. There has been little objection to either of these two locations being used for this purpose (once the GT dock is built following the advice of EIAs in order to ensure no harm is done to 7MB). They have put a great deal of time and consideration into the selection of these two locations and have very good reason for the choice. If you want a cruise ship dock anytime in the near future don't even think about putting it in South Sound as this will cause an uproar 5 times larger than the current over Emerald Sound. Most people are taking this proposal as a joke.
SS is a replenishment zone. It is politically not feasible to convert SS into a cruise ship port and most importantly irrational!
Remember there are already more than 2,000 objecting largely to the environmental impact which the proposed Emerald Sound development will have. Unlike the East End Seaport / Shetty Hospital swap – neither of these options (Emerald Sound or Port) are political feasible for SS. (A nice residential development without canals and marina and bridge however would be a realistic swap!). SS is an area of exceptional natural beauty used heavily by the local population – South Sounders and from right across the island. There are currently so few public spaces in Grand Cayman where people from all walks of life can come together, enjoy nature, walk,jog, bring kids to play in calm shallow waters along the shore. 25 years ago it was decided that SS was an area of significant environmental importance, despite the damage which had been done by development, and was designated a replenishment zone, to be protected, in the best interest of Cayman and its people. Similarly , recognizing the importance of this area of natural beauty to the island, the 1997 Development Plan designated South Sound Road as a scenic coastal road.
GT and Spotts are deep water areas unlike SS which would have to be subject to extensive blasting and enormous amounts of dredging done to get cruise ships in. The higher economic costs – which are being borne by the Chinese investor/developer – of building in deep water versus shallow water do not compare with the priceless and permanent loss of one of Cayman's most breathtaking areas of natural beauty and recreation. And I would seriously question the cost being less with all the blasting and dredging of an enormous area that would be required (taking the depth from less than 6ft to 50ft in an area big enough for 6 cruise ships + to come in, turn around, dock etc ).
How is having the cruise ship port in South Sound going to bring more business to the EAST? A port in Spotts would facilitate this aim better.
All the infrastructure already exists in GT and it would all have to be replicated in SS (billions of dollars and dozens of buildings, walkways, shops, cafes, restaurants, bus and taxi areas, craft market etc). Leaving GT as a ghost town. The final nail in the coffin for downtown GT after Camana Bay. This would devastate businesses in the downtown GT area who have invested billions into building this area up and employ thousands of people.
The local community already mostly goes to areas outside of downtown GT for all its shopping, eating, etc more of which took place in downtown GT before the shift to 7MB with Camana Bay adding to all the other shopping plazas and restaurants along the 7MB strip. So downtown GT is already cleared of the local crowd. The financial industry drive into their offices at 8am and don’t leave until 6pm or later and eat mostly inside their buildings which cater to them or have food delivered, pay their bills online.
The swamp land you refer to is a healthy thriving mangrove wetland which provides immeasurable protection to all of South Sound, Crew Rd, Windsor Park etc in hurricanes. And finally, a cruise ship port in SS would obliterate the natural environment of South Sound which this country has invested in to protect over the last 25 years.
A very well thought out anti-port comment, but I think that all of our statements are misguided. Let me address them one by one.
1.) Government is in advance talks with no-one to build either of those ports. The decision to go with Town and Spotts was a knee-jerk reaction at best, just building upon our mistakes in the past. Spotts will still not have a pier and where exactly will all the tourists go? There is no land there to accomodate them, and unlike south sound, homes are on either side of the spotts dock. Since you seem to be privy to information that made them go with Spotts can you please enlighten us? We will be building 2 or 3 ports and be no further ahead then we are now.
2.) Politically feasible? What does this have to do with politics? This is what is best for this country for today and tomorrow. Not what is politically convenient.
3.) I understand that South Sound is a replenishment zone. But have you ever swam and observed the area that the Captains are proposing to put it? The Captains have. There is nothing in those areas, no rocks, no coral, even very little conch. The DOE would agree that there is very little by way of coral and sea life in that area.
4.) You keep referring to Emerald Cove. This has nothing to do with that and I agree we need to do developments that are beneficial to the island as a whole (not just a few residents) which is why the berthing is a better idea.
5.) "There are currently so few public spaces in Grand Cayman where people from all walks of life can come together, enjoy nature, walk, jog, bring kids to play in calm shallow waters along the shore." – – The cruise port will not take any of this away. But I need to correct you – this is not being proposed in the part of South Sound that kids play in (I think you're mixing it up with Smith Cove). If kids wereto go along the shore here they would get stung by the turtle grass – no one ever swims there.
6.) "The higher economic costs – which are beingborne by the Chinese investor/developer" – – and who do you think ultimately pays this price? THE PEOPLE OF CAYMAN. No stranger from China is going to come here and do us any favours. The quicker the Government pays off the costs the quicker those funds can go towards helping the people in need.
7.) Billions? Certainly you don't care about facts. There was a study done a few years ago that said there was roughly 100,000sft of retail space (not office space, which tourists don't want to see anyway) in town. If you use a square foot price of $300 (really high!!!) That would be $30,000,000 to recreate this somewhere else. But hey, who cares about facts. The captains are not proposing to recreate George Town though! They would bus the people there and wherever else they are going – they just want the dock to go in the right spot, which Red Bay is.
8.) "The financial industry drive into their offices at 8am and don’t leave until 6pm or later and eat mostly inside their buildings which cater to them or have food delivered, pay their bills online." – – this is laughable at best. We in the financial industry are not hermetic recluses.
9.) "The swamp land you refer to is a healthy thriving mangrove wetland which provides immeasurable protection to all of South Sound, Crew Rd, Windsor Park etc in hurricanes" – – If you ever look at a map of Cayman you will notice that Windsor Park is in no way near the Captains Cruise Berth…to say this you're simply trying to instil fear in people to oppose the Captains idea.
South Sound being converted into a cruiseship port is non-sense.
There are dozens of extremely important reasons why SS would not make a suitable location and your biased assessment fails to take into account any of them.
That's right. After all very rich and extremely important people live there. (I assume those are the "dozens" you are referring)
To all the cons out there trying to find another excuse. I think it is time to stop and think if there is no cruise ship docking facilities. Where are we going to find the money to fix our banks here in cayman. Because as we've been seeing no matter where the dock was going to go. Everyplace that was chosen whether it was marine engineers or captains there is a con . There is a con for everything in life. If you look up at the sun too long you could hurt your eyes, If you sit in the sun too long you could get skin cancer, If you swim too long your skin will shrivel up, if you eat too much you'll get fat. Am i getting you frustrated yet? Because I'm past frustrated .This has been too long for all the wrong reasons to stop this project.
I haven't worked in 3 months I've been preparing my bus for the season. Body work paint rebuilt engine new clutch new flooring. Anyway a lot of money. I had to borrow it from the bank . I expect to pay the bank for the loan and my house loan and my car loan and my health ins. and my pension and the guys who maintain my yard by the way buy some food these are my cons. I am one of over 2000 families who depend on cruise lines. I have argued many times about building a cruise dock over the years. There has always been a group of people who are not directly involved with this industry that have too much to say . Before hurricane ivan they said that stayover tourism was the way to go. Well were are they? Businesses are closing down . No customers . How do the cons suggest we get the customers?
I see we have a problem coming and coming quickly. If 2000 families are having the same problem as i am having then the banks will start to close down. Cause none of us will be able to pay are loans. Which means a hell of lot more crime then what you are seeing today! Gov't employees will lose their jobs banks will close. Rest. will close beauty parlours am i frustrating you yet? Well i've been frustrated a long time ago. So i could on for days about my frustration but i already have high blood pressure.
South sound is the best place to build the docks because of weather. They will have to dredge about 35 ft. of mostly sand and marl. Georgetown was never the best place because of the reefs were so high. Thats why Bob Soto mostly dove shallow dives in town. Plus you have a chance to bring back those reefs if you use south sound.
The staging area could be done on the seaside with about 2 acres of reclaimed land . The currents and other issues could be addressed by walls to block the sea. The traffic just needs another lane going into town on the Linford Pierson highway. done.
We have capable people who can address these concerns.
CNS: Can you log in please if you are using your real name.
A similiar idea was born by Captain Theo about 30 years ago and in fact all of the prospect area was zoned I believe Industrial or Commercial to accomodate it. It has since been rezoned but the intent was certainly there, maybe just wrong timing. The timing has come for this to happen we just have to hope the Chinese or Dart will be willing to build this.
I think this is a great idea, but you know what? It won't go anywhere because it's the Caymanians that are behind it – our local Sea Captains. Anything proposed by locals is always sidelined.
It's time for Cayman to stand behind our fellow men and stand in unity and get this project through, so we can finally get some cruise tourist again!
there's no such thing as a 100% all year round location for the cruise berthing…even the super Dart plans that were mooted for the GT dock would not have stopped the NorWesters coming!
like them or loathe them, the cruise ships must continue to come to cayman…they bring in a lot of money now, and if we had a proper dock in place and properly marketed cayman to these Million + annual day-trippers, a large percentage of them could be 'sold' on the idea of coming back for a week-long stay as resident tourists…..thats what we should be doing…..but right now, any cruise guest will tell you its appalling down town…there is no organization, the mess on the royal watler port is stunning (signs/dirty tents/unlicensed vendors)….every week there are taxi and tour operators arguing over guests……and then there is the q'ing for the passengers trying to get back to their ships….stuck out in the blazing sun, no shade, on top of a heat-reflecting surface……all of the good work done by anyone int he industry is forgotten once the cruise passenger has to endure the return through the current port
we needa port, a great port…but why build it anywhere else? that makes no sense at all….not that i have too much sympathy with them, but what about all the businesses that have over the years spent buckets of money on their operations down town around the port….why would we build it elsewhere to benefit others? it doesnt seem right
just someone build a port, please factor in parking for tour and taxi operators, and shade….then we can sell cayman as a long-term vacation destination and not just a 4 hour cruise stop off
Kudos to Captain McCoy, Captain Bob Soto, Captain Paul Hurlstone and any other of our masters of the sea that brought this plan to light again. Hopefully our government will have the foresight to make it happen and not pander to the seemingle constant nay-sayers.
This has been mooted for years, it will take a decisive Government to get something like this done, and I'm not sure that we have that now or have had it for the last 12 years.
If something doesn't happen soon we will all have to go to the South Coast and watch them sail on by us.
Decisive = not care about what the people think
Seems logical. Isn't government already starting one in town though? Would this be to replace the one in town or supplementary?
Replace both Downtown and Spotts Landing in one shot…
The cruise industry will be the ruination of the island. It's already part way there.
I fail to see any "cons" that you consider, so let's just assume this isn't an unbiased assessment. I'll lay out a few for you now. You speak of the government acquiring the swamp land area around old Crewe Road. Unfortunately, that swamp land is privately owned and slated for development of Emerald Sound (for better, or in my opinion, worse). With approval for development, the owner will certainly have a case to claim the future value of the land far exceeds current value, which the government must take into consideration if they were to acquire it as Crown land when paying the owner. That's going to cost a lot more money than I think we should be paying for a berthing facility.
Another issue is that the South Sound is quite shallow, and to dredge a channel large enough to accomodate multiple cruise ships (and potentially a mega-ship or two) to enter and dock is going to severely change the current patterns and environmental system within a largely pristine natural environment. The studies necessary to changes in erosion patterns, algae growth or diminishment and destruction of natural aquatic habitats due to massively changing the water depth over a large portion of the Sound will need to be extensive, to say the least.
Futher, as much as you suggest traffic can be diverted to the bypass, you still have the issue of incorporating high tourism traffic in a low-density residential area. Yes, it's congested in George Town. However, George Town is at least better equipped to handle multiple thousands of cruiseship passengers. South Sound Road, the bypass, and the roundabouts necessary to get to the bypass are not designed for the volume of traffic that would be necessary to bus everyone to wherever they wanted to go in a short period of time. In addition, where would you expect the passengers to stage as they wait for the bus? What issues might arise from the few hundred who will choose to wander around the apartment complexes and private homes in the area? What about businesses that will want to place a store or two as a first selling opportunity for disembarking passengers? Have you considered the impact on incoming local traffic from anywhere east of South Sound Road?
Logistically, environmentally, financially – you name it and there are serious issues that would face a cruiseship berthing facility in the South Sound. Just because a couple of sea captains have said it would be a good idea because of protection from choppy seas doesn't mean it's the best location, particularly when it would negate the investment and research into environmental impact undertaken and existing business infrastructure within GT.
And as my caveat to writing this response, while I am sympathetic to your plight given your dependency on tourism, I don't think your job, or mine, holds nearly enough weight to push for poor decisions. I work in the duty-free jewelry industry and we've certainly been impacted by the decrease in cruise arrivals. On the other hand, I don't put my financial needs above that of a country. While I recognise a cruise berthing facility is very much necessary to the future of our economy, and in particular our jobs, a South Sound facility is not the route to take as it will cost Cayman more in the short- and longterm than would taking advantage of existing opportunities in the George Town area.
"The studies necessary to changes in erosion patterns, algae growth or diminishment and destruction of natural aquatic habitats due to massively changing the water depth over a large portion of the Sound will need to be extensive, to say the least."###I agree totally, lots of studies need to be done now!
"Yes, it's congested in George Town. However, George Town is at least better equipped to handle multiple thousands of cruiseship passengers." ###Where the captains propose this, there are over a hundred acres of swamp that could be developed specifically for the cruisers. How canyou say town is better equip for cruisship passengers? You can't even find a parking space in town much less an acre for tourists!
"In addition, where would you expect the passengers to stage as they wait for the bus?" ###That's what the hundred or so acres is for, to keep all the buses and traffic AWAY from South Sound residential areas.
"Have you considered the impact on incoming local traffic from anywhere east of South Sound Road?" ###They would not be affected at all, everything would be confined to the new cruise zone in the swamp and nothing would be allowed to go to South Sound. Google "Castaway Cay" that's what I have in mind for that area.
If you're in the jewellery business in town, maybe that's why you don't want it moved…maybe you have personal motivations to keep it in town? I don't agree that South Sound will cost more in the long term, just the opposite.
Again, you seem to think that the acres of swamp are just sitting there for government to utilise. As I mentioned before, it’s privately owned and now slated to be developed. I highly doubt the owner will part with it save for an obscene amount of money, which would easily negate savings you mention by building in a shallow water area. Your proposal is largely based on what you deem simple solutions that are, in fact, based on this fantasy you have regarding land availability.
To address your concern that I might be worried moving the port outward from GT would negatively impact my job, quite simply that’s untrue. If I were concerned about increasing my opportunities I’d ignore cruises altogether and push for stayover tourim to an extreme – they’re much more likely to spend money on luxury items as opposed to utilising your water sports than cruise passengers. But I do recognise the importance of cruisers to the entire island’s welfare, and the secondary effects that holds for my personal business. Nobody wants to visit a ghost-island with shuttered doors, which is what may well happen over time if the port keeps getting delayed. I understand your frustration.
My suggestion to improve the GT experience (currently as well as when the port is built here – because it will be despite this nonsensical argument regarding south sound) is that we shut harbour drive to traffic from 9am-4pm to allow more access to pedestrian traffic to ease walking congestion. Allow tour buses and taxis to still run their routes, but it will ease access for cruisers. Further, most workers will be in the office by that time, so it shouldn’t cause a major inconvenience. If we had issues with school tpick-ups, change it from 9-3. Why spend loads of money to build new roads or reclaim land in the bay for staging areas when policy changes can accomplish the same for free with only minor inconveniences to our local populatioon.
Agree with your post completely!
How much does an acre of South Sound swampy land cost? Compare that with how much an acre (if you're able to find it!) costs or how much it costs to reclaim land and I think you'll find it's 90% cheaper.
The fact that it is shallow is one of the main reasons that it is appealing from what I understand. Since it is shallow they can build the piers for a small amount versus the $300 Million they have quoted in the paper that town would cost. So it being shallow is actually a benefit this guy can add to his list.